Uncovering the Miracles of Nancy Pearl: Seattle’s Most Famous Librarian

Nancy Pearl is an American librarian, best-selling author, literary critic, and the former executive of the Washington Center for the Book at Seattle Public Library. She is known for her work promoting reading and libraries, and is the inspiration behind the popular “Librarian Action Figure”.

You will learn:

1. How Nancy Pearl, a retired librarian, used her childhood library to pursue a career in librarianship and how she has gone on to make an impact on the profession. 

2. The story of how Nancy Pearl became the model for the first librarian action figure. 

3. The benefits of listening to audiobooks and how they can enhance the reading experience.

Nancy was a wonderful guest and if you are a fan of books you cannot miss this episode. Great stories of a life filled with reading and storytelling.

Nancy Pearl Librarian Episode Transcript

Hello, friends, and welcome to the Exploring Washington State podcast. My name is Scott Cowan, and I’m the host of the show. Each episode, I have a conversation with an interesting guest who is living in or from Washington state. These are casual conversations with real and interesting people. I think you’re gonna like the show. So let’s jump right in with today’s guest. Welcome to this episode of the Exploring Washington State podcast. My guest today is Nancy Pearl.

Scott Cowan [00:00:33]:
Nancy was recommended to me by multiple listeners. They said you’ve you gotta try to get her on. She’s gonna be difficult. She’s hard to reach. Good luck. No. I’m kidding. But multiple listeners said we should try to get Nancy Pearl on the show.

Scott Cowan [00:00:50]:
Reached out to you, Nancy. You you’re kind enough. You responded pretty pretty quickly, frankly, and I appreciate that. So Gotta try to introduce you, and this is from this is what’s impressive. This is from your Wikipedia page.

Nancy Pearl [00:01:05]:
Which I did not write.

Scott Cowan [00:01:06]:
I know you didn’t. That’s the whole point. You kid you can’t write your own I tried. I tried to give myself a Wikipedia. No. I kid. You can’t do this. So it I’m just gonna read a little bit.

Scott Cowan [00:01:16]:
Nancy Pearl is an American librarian, best selling author, literary critic, and the former executive of the Washington Center For the Book at Seattle Public Library. K. Gonna bounce over here to the Seattle Times article where the headline reads, Nancy Pearl, Seattle’s most famous librarian, looks back on a lifetime of books. Nancy, as I’ve read about you, you Realized at 10 that you wanted to be a librarian. As a 10 year old, I was an avid read I am an avid reader. I was an avid reader. I grew up in Tacoma, and we had, summer book club. And, the library that I my my mom and dad and I went to, for, like, 4 years running, I read more books than Every other kid in that library, etcetera, etcetera.

Scott Cowan [00:02:11]:
So I I have this kind of interest that at 10 And you grew up in Detroit, and this is a really long introduction, isn’t it? But, basically, can we can we just talk about that for a second? At at 10, How about, really quickly, between 10 in college, did you ever Change your mind? Did you ever think I wanted to be an astronaut or or or something else?

Nancy Pearl [00:02:38]:
Well, certainly not an astronaut because physics, you know, beyond me. But I didn’t change my mind. I I had 1 when I was in college, I was really, taken with Noam Chomsky’s theory of English grammar, the transformational grammar that that his you know, that was being developed then. And I really thought, wow, wouldn’t that be great to go to MIT and, you know, get a doctorate and do all that? And then I realized that, You know, I’m not I’m I’m pretty smart, but I’m not an intellectual, and I don’t respond to things analytically. I respond to them this early all the time. And and then I immediately knew that I had to be a librarian, and I wanted To be a librarian because wanted to be a children’s librarian because my childhood library, The Parkland branch library in Detroit, Michigan in the northwest part of Detroit, those librarians were so good to me. They were really you know, I was really an an un miserably unhappy child. Didn’t I never wanted to go home, and they just were kind to me.

Nancy Pearl [00:03:59]:
And I thought I wanna do for other kid. I mean, they opened the world, especially miss Whitehead, just opened the world to me, and she would come up to me. I mean, all I read were horse and dog books when she met me. I was, like, 10, 9, or 10. And, you know, I In fact, if you and I, Scott, went to the Parkland branch library, I could show you where in the library in the children’s section of library, The horse and dog books were kept because they were pulled out of the regular children’s fiction collection. Anyway, miss Whitehead would say Hey. She you know, she would come up to me, and she would say, Nancy, we just got in a brand new horse book. Do you wanna be the 1st person in this library to read this book? And I would say, yes.

Nancy Pearl [00:04:46]:
And, you know, I’d hold my hands up for the book, and she’d say, Oh, wait a second. There’s a book I want you to read first, and then she would. She was Canadian. She loved British Children’s fiction. And so by that sort of, you know, by that method Right. Bait and switch, The first example of bait and switch, I think, that I ever encountered. You know, she she gave me the Mary Toppins book. She gave me The Hobbit.

Nancy Pearl [00:05:15]:
But she gave me, you know, the, swallows in Amazon series, all this British fiction, and the best of the children’s fiction. She had me read all the Newbery Award winners. And, you know, all my all my interests We’re really helped to develop by, you know, by miss Whitehead. And so that’s what I wanted. And, you know, in fact, I I did become a children’s librarian, and my 1st job after library school at the University of Michigan was back at the Detroit Public Library. And I would have given a lot if I could have worked with miss Whitehead at the Parkland branch library, but instead, That I you know, I that was not to be, but I worked on the bookmobile. And and I was her colleague, you know, till until she died. And, You know, those are very, very meaningful to me.

Scott Cowan [00:06:07]:
That’s awesome. Now somewhere in my research, I read This part, it kind of I think, it’ll be a nice bridge. But, basically, when you were 13, I think it was, She introduced you to the adult librarians.

Nancy Pearl [00:06:23]:
We

Scott Cowan [00:06:23]:
did. And the 1st book that you checked out was Gone With the Wind.

Nancy Pearl [00:06:26]:
It was.

Scott Cowan [00:06:27]:
And so I’ve I’ve I’ve kinda have this this mental vision of, you know, you being escorted over and ended off To the care of of other librarians, her work with you is done now, and you are now being shepherded over to this side of the library

Nancy Pearl [00:06:44]:
in Oh, that’s exactly the way it was. I mean, it was the you know, it was the library is built was kind of based on a Carnegie library model, although it was not a Carnegie library, where you entered and you what you saw right in front of you was the, the checkout desk, the circulation desk. And then on one side was the children’s room, and on the other side was the adult room. And miss Whitehead, actually, Actually, my memory has walked me over and said, you know, I want you to meet blah blah blah and just turned me loose. Now regret Hopefully, I think she, you know, was sad about it because not because, you know, it wasn’t anything like didn’t want me to read certain books or anything like that. But, you know, that she didn’t want me to give up the children’s books that

Scott Cowan [00:07:31]:
she and her loved so much, and I didn’t. Okay. So So why no. Well, I won’t spend. I’m leading in a direction. So why the University of Michigan?

Nancy Pearl [00:07:46]:
Oh, well, we’re you know, it was it was well, first of all, I got a scholarship there. Okay. So that Excellent. Paid for my library school. And second of all, it was a very good library school. Michigan, You know, I graduate my undergraduate degree was from there. My husband I mean, I you know, my husband Was getting his doctorate there, so just, you know, there was no place else I would wanna go.

Scott Cowan [00:08:13]:
Alright. So this is the question I have for you.

Nancy Pearl [00:08:16]:
Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:08:17]:
Are you willing to sing the Ohio State fight song?

Nancy Pearl [00:08:25]:
I hate Ohio State. Okay. I mean, I I mean, you could always Yeah. When I I go on these daily long

Scott Cowan [00:08:34]:
walks Okay.

Nancy Pearl [00:08:35]:
And I always wear my Michigan cap, you know, which is just an M.

Scott Cowan [00:08:39]:
The M.

Nancy Pearl [00:08:39]:
What you say when you meet another Michigan person is go blue. And it turns out there’s a lot of people in the Seattle area who have gone blue. And it’s just so much

Scott Cowan [00:08:51]:
fun. So what what do you do if you see an Ohio State?

Nancy Pearl [00:08:54]:
Yeah. Roughly. I avert my eyes.

Scott Cowan [00:08:58]:
You you go to the other side of the street. You go to the other side of the street.

Nancy Pearl [00:08:59]:
You go to

Scott Cowan [00:09:00]:
the crowd.

Nancy Pearl [00:09:00]:
Okay. But I have to say, I was I was waiting for the Apple store to open a a few years ago, and, you know, we went in there, and this person said, well, I I really this guy, young guy said, well, I I don’t really wanna help you. And I said, really? Why? You know? Because I’m like your grandmother or something. And he said, no. He said, I went to Ohio State. So

Scott Cowan [00:09:25]:
I love it. I love it.

Nancy Pearl [00:09:26]:
But, of course, he did help me. He was

Scott Cowan [00:09:28]:
very nice. No. It’s it’s it’s good. I went to Central Washington University here. Okay? So I can root for or against The Huskies and the Cougars, you know, I I can jump on whatever bandwagon without any any sort of guilt. But my friends that went to the UW or went to WSU, It splits households apart during duffle cup week. You know, it’s it’s kinda fun, and and I like the whole college rivalry thing. So when you were at Michigan.

Scott Cowan [00:09:57]:
Did you ever go to a football game there?

Nancy Pearl [00:10:00]:
Yes. I you know, Roger Staubach was the Navy quarterback. And And when Michigan played Navy, I think when I was a junior, I think I got tickets to that. And and then my the apartment that my husband and I had was within walking distance of the football stadium. K. So you couldn’t leave on Saturdays on football Saturdays because you could never got a parking place until long after the game was over.

Scott Cowan [00:10:31]:
Because if memory serves me, doesn’t that stadium hold over a 100,000 people? It’s it’s a

Nancy Pearl [00:10:36]:
100 A 103,000.

Scott Cowan [00:10:38]:
And it’s massive. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No. I was I was I I was had to teach you about the Ohio. I was a gamble on the Ohio State, I could’ve picked somebody else, but, you know, I figured Ohio State was probably a safe

Nancy Pearl [00:10:48]:
arch rival. Totally.

Scott Cowan [00:10:51]:
So you you you ended up in Oklahoma. Right. And with one of the questions I had earlier was or We’re I had a question earlier I was gonna ask you, and and and that was the you’re on you’re on NPR here at KOW in Seattle, but you’re also in Tulsa, and I didn’t Didn’t draw the connection there that, oh, that’s Oklahoma. Makes sense. And you raised your family in Oklahoma. Right. And Then you were kind of given a a job opportunity that Many people probably wouldn’t have taken because your husband stayed in Oklahoma for 4 years to finish up his because he was a professor at that time, And you came to Seattle. So what were your 1st years in Seattle like? What what because this is the Washington State thing.

Scott Cowan [00:11:43]:
So, like, what did you you you know, you grew up in Detroit. You’ve been in Tulsa. I don’t know if you’d ever Been out here to Seattle, and I’m in Wenatchee, so I’m not out there. But, I don’t know that you had ever had you been to Seattle before?

Nancy Pearl [00:11:56]:
Yes. I was heading to Seattle because my younger daughter dropped out of college after her sophomore year at the University of Chicago And moved out here. Okay. Her high school drama teacher was here and said, okay, do you can sleep on the floor, you know, in my apartment? So Katie did all of the, you know, worked at the market and waited on tables at the crocodile, you know, all of that. Okay. And so I came out to see Katie, and, and the reason I mean, the job offer came from somebody that I had worked with in Tulsa at the library who had come out here to be the assistant director of the Seattle library. And so when I came out, of course, I saw him. You know, we got together to, you know, just sort of because we were good friends.

Nancy Pearl [00:12:50]:
And he said, You know, Nancy, what if I come up with a job that does you know, lets you do everything that you’re good at doing, And you don’t have to do anything that you’re bad at doing. And there are many things that I’m bad at doing, which you knew about. But the fact that I was good at doing, you know, sort of made a good fit for being the director of the Washington Center For the Book. Because one of the things that I am good at doing is talking about books and Okay. You know, and talking about Without hectoring or lecturing, talking about, you know, the joy of reading Mhmm. So those 1st few years We’re spent doing, going out to to book clubs, meeting with book club, meeting with book clubs, talking to book I always said I was like a book club social worker, you know, that people would ask me, You know, they would they all had the same basically, the same 2 issues. 1 was there was always somebody in the group that talked too much, and, You know, how could they handle that? And then the other thing is, you know, what makes a book good for a book group? And I had I had opinions on both those things. So I spent a lot of time going to various book groups all through King County k.

Nancy Pearl [00:14:21]:
And then Speaking at different libraries, I remember the 1st person who asked me to come speak was the director of the Everett Library. And, of course, this was way before MapQuest or any of these things. And so I I had this This kind of record that I would never you know, I would get to the place, and then I would never go back the same way Because of my inability to follow a map and to sort of understand if you turned right to get to somewhere, then to get back, you turn left. So I, you know, I appreciated roads like the Bell Red Road that goes, you know, between Bellevue and Redmond because it, you know, spoke for itself. But I went to I I still meet people who talk about, You know, I came to their book group and,

Scott Cowan [00:15:17]:
Well, that’s

Nancy Pearl [00:15:18]:
And that was a long time ago because, you know, I’ve been here Almost 30 years in Maine. Yeah. So yeah. And and and, you know, I went to the Tacoma Library, a couple

Scott Cowan [00:15:31]:
times to The main branch. The big one. The big Carnegie one. Yeah.

Nancy Pearl [00:15:35]:
Clubs. Yeah. I had to do book talks and Yeah. And and it really it was just to get people to help people realize And most people knew this, but, you know, that the library is a central, you know, is a central is the most important public building certainly in in any in any city of any size. So, you know, some wonders that the library had. And then I very soon after well, sort of maybe 5 years after I got there, I started teaching part time at the, you that at UW’s Now Information School.

Scott Cowan [00:16:22]:
Okay.

Nancy Pearl [00:16:23]:
So anyway, that’s what I did.

Scott Cowan [00:16:25]:
That’s so you moved to Seattle in the nineties when the music scene was at its pinnacle probably for Seattle. Seattle was a very different city then than it is now. I was living in Seattle at at that time, and, I loved living in Seattle. I I I I loved, I love living in in Seattle. I had a great little place in West Seattle on the water, but I had a duck to go through the doorways. Mhmm. It was just a little beach cabin, and it was I remember people thinking I was crazy because I paid $600 a month rent. You know, now it’d be who knows what it’d be, but it was a lot.

Scott Cowan [00:17:08]:
But So here’s a question I have. I mean, I got I got so many questions, but this is a question I have. So you I wanna say you’re a librarian, like, in is a is a is a a moniker to, like, hang on your Shoulders and say you’re a librarian, but you’re you’re a librarian. You worked in in the in libraries a number of years, And yet, you have a Wikipedia page. There’s a TED Talk that you’ve done.

Nancy Pearl [00:17:40]:
TEDx. Right.

Scott Cowan [00:17:43]:
Archie McPhee puts together the librarian superhero modeled after you. Right. How did the University of Michigan prepare you for these things? A kid, but what how did you

Nancy Pearl [00:17:55]:
Right. You You know, do you remember that, you know, that old book about, You know, do what you love, and the money will follow.

Scott Cowan [00:18:08]:
Right.

Nancy Pearl [00:18:09]:
Just do what you love. You know, I I was fortunate enough To, have as my supervisors, especially the guy who came here to be the assistant director, You know, who appreciated what I could do. Mhmm. And I managed to make of the job you know, I just could tailor it to to what I did best. Okay. I was incredibly fortunate and Couldn’t have happened to a nicer person. That’s what I say.

Scott Cowan [00:18:52]:
There you go.

Nancy Pearl [00:18:53]:
I like that.

Scott Cowan [00:18:54]:
I mean, you’ve won a a number of awards. There’s a, a scholarship that’s in your name for local authors?

Nancy Pearl [00:19:04]:
No. No. Uh-uh. Uh-uh. I no. My has because, you know, because the profession of being a librarian Mhmm. Really was so Good to me because I loved it. My husband and I set up, their an endowment at the University of Washington Information school Okay.

Nancy Pearl [00:19:27]:
For people who wanna go into public library work.

Scott Cowan [00:19:30]:
So just total random thing, what was your husband a professor of?

Nancy Pearl [00:19:35]:
He was a professor. He’s a Buddhist. He was a professor of, human development and and something called transpersonal psychology at Oklahoma State University. So he’s Probably the only Buddhist on the faculty. I got nothing Demistin, I am a pessimist.

Scott Cowan [00:20:01]:
Oh, family dinner’s gotta be a lot of fun at your

Nancy Pearl [00:20:03]:
house. Right. Right. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:20:09]:
So I am you’re you’re the 1st you’re the 1st guest I’ve had on that people have published Your some of your quotes. Yes. I’m taken aback by this. I’ve had I’ve had other guests on with Wikipedia pages. I’ve had other guests on with TED or TEDx Talks. The the combination of of your portfolio, if you will, is is really quite Staggering to me.

Nancy Pearl [00:20:36]:
Me too.

Scott Cowan [00:20:38]:
I this a quote that it it the people that know you have, They’re all gonna know this. I believe they’re all gonna know this quote, but I wanna go a little deeper. So it says, I just said, well, the real people Performing miracles every day are librarians, and we all laughed ourselves off our chairs. Can you put context around that for us?

Nancy Pearl [00:20:58]:
Well, that was that was the the start of the very first librarian action figure, which came out in The fall of 2003, which was when the 1st book lust book that I wrote was published by Sasquatch, both in the month of September. And, the librarian action figures came about because, the head of Archie McPhee, the owner of Archie McPhee, we were at a dinner party together, and He was talking about, you know, people writing and saying that that the Jesus action figure was performing miracles

Scott Cowan [00:21:41]:
For that? Okay.

Nancy Pearl [00:21:43]:
And and that’s when I said, but, you know, people who really perform miracles are librarian. And, And then somebody else said, oh my god. You know, Mark, you should do a librarian action figure, and Nancy should be the model for it. And and then it happened, and and it sold, you know, like like A gazillion copies of that first, you know, 999 or 8.99 action figure in 2003.

Scott Cowan [00:22:20]:
So Mark was a has been a guest on before, and he’s a character. Yeah. And so of what I’m picking up here though is that That statement coupled with Mark what I believe Mark’s personality is, yeah, it was inevitable. Once you once you said it, he was gonna run with it. I mean so I think that’s that’s hysterical. So I’ll ask you a question that I ask authors a lot, And and I’ll ask you this question about your books too in a second. But so I’d like to ask you about very specifically about this action figure. Where were you the 1st time you saw it?

Nancy Pearl [00:22:59]:
Where was I the 1st time I saw it? Well, I think they had sent me photos of you know, I went to Muckle TO to be digitized, which if I ever write, Yeah. That’s a good response. If I ever write a memoir, which I’m not gonna write a memoir, but if I ever did, I think That would be the first line. I went to Muckle TO to be digitized. I I don’t know when I first saw it, but I have to say that That night, as we were driving home, my husband said to me, you know, that dinner party night when somebody said, oh, you should be the, my husband said, his 4 favorite words to me. Now, you know, there are peep I’m sure there are husbands who have, you know, Different 4 favorite 4 words that they say to their wives. My husband’s 4 favorite words to me are, Nancy, think this through. Then he said, Nancy, think this through.

Nancy Pearl [00:24:02]:
Do you really wanna be a 5 inch nonbiodegradable plastic Action figure, and I said, you know, my my response to everything is, oh, don’t even think about it. It’ll never happen. And then lo and behold Yeah. It

Scott Cowan [00:24:21]:
happened. And not only did it happen, it was a hit.

Nancy Pearl [00:24:23]:
Yeah. It was a hit.

Scott Cowan [00:24:23]:
So that they’ve come out with an updated version.

Nancy Pearl [00:24:26]:
Yeah. I just think 2 Dated version.

Scott Cowan [00:24:28]:
Yeah. I mean Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Nancy Pearl [00:24:30]:
Yep. Yep.

Scott Cowan [00:24:33]:
Yep. That’s. I’m sorry. That’s just it’s it’s you’re you’re the 1st guest that’s had an action figure.

Nancy Pearl [00:24:39]:
It’s I

Scott Cowan [00:24:40]:
don’t know that I don’t know that I’m gonna have other guests with action figures. I I don’t know. I I just think that I think I think my career as a podcast host is is complete now. I think we can just

Nancy Pearl [00:24:52]:
Well, people always ask, You know, people’s often refer to it as a bobblehead, and I would never have done a bobblehead.

Scott Cowan [00:24:59]:
It’s not a bobblehead. No. It it’s not a it’s not a bobblehead. No. So did you did you buy a did you buy a bunch and give them away? Did you send them to your did you send them to people? I did not have to do

Nancy Pearl [00:25:11]:
that Because other people were you know, people have said, do you know how many action figures I got when I graduated from library school? Because it was a perfect,

Scott Cowan [00:25:21]:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I didn’t even think about that. Yeah. Oh. Right. Oh.

Nancy Pearl [00:25:24]:
So and the big the the one of the things that people The big criticism was they didn’t like what I was wearing because they thought it was jowdy. And in fact, it was, You know, a very nice Eileen out outfit for my Eileen Fisher, you know, which I had, and which doesn’t translate into plastic very So that’s why when we did when we did the latest one with the cape, Then I could wear jeans, so which is what I mostly wear. So people didn’t like how doughty it was, and, you know, That was just ridiculous. But

Scott Cowan [00:26:09]:
Okay. When I was a young kid, I I don’t recall. And I and I went to a lot of libraries. I mean, you know, I don’t recall any librarian necessarily being a a fashion plate, And that’s fine. And they were kind of more subtle. So I don’t know that that’s and I haven’t, But I haven’t been in a physical library in a number of years. I take my mom to the Wenatchee library regularly so that she can Good books, but so this is a this is totally this is where, like, I think I want you like, we’re gonna get off the rails. So I have a this is You mean you mean choose not to respond to this question? What is your opinion? Is it is it good? It’s not it’s yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:27:01]:
I’m not trying to make this a black or white question. So but but I’m gonna get is is the and and I’m gonna use the the The name of a specific thing here, but it applies to all platforms. Is the Kindle reader good for books, Or is it harmful?

Nancy Pearl [00:27:20]:
Oh, I I I think it’s, I actually think it’s good for books. I think it’s good for reading. I’m you know, I I very seldom sleep the whole night through and spend many hours reading on my Kindle in the middle of the night so I Don’t have to turn on a light to read for a physical book. I mean, maybe it’s maybe it’s a new maybe it’s neutral. Maybe it’s neither good nor bad. It certainly adds a different dimension. There are books there are I I don’t read Let’s see. I love my Kindle because I can underline in it.

Nancy Pearl [00:28:00]:
Okay. And I don’t like writing in physical books. Okay. So, you know, there’s that. There are people who find their reading nonfiction. The author, an author that I talked to said that he loves reading nonfiction on his Kindle because he can underline, And that makes it, you know, easier. Mhmm. But for me, what I tend to read on Kindle are are just kind of books, you know,

Scott Cowan [00:28:36]:
mysteries. A summer beach type book, if you will.

Nancy Pearl [00:28:39]:
Yeah. I mean, you could yeah. I don’t normally go that that far Okay. Into fiction. But, yeah, That kind of book.

Scott Cowan [00:28:51]:
So I remember remember when ereaders were coming out and they weren’t really standard? And I was, like, who? No. I I don’t want books. I want a book. I wanna hold the book. I I will never I will never do that. Right. That’s all I read on.

Nancy Pearl [00:29:09]:
And it’s Yeah. I mean, the bad thing about it Not bad, but an unfortunate side effect of the Kindle is that you don’t have to go to the library. You know, and you’d and you can get library books. I mean, the the I that’s wonderful, and it was certainly wonderful, All the ebooks that are available that that libraries have, it was certainly wonderful during the pandemic when libraries were closed. But, you know, the danger is that people get out of the habit of going to the library. And and there are books like last Tonight, I was reading this amazing heartbreaking novel called I am the light of this world by a writer named Michael Parker. This came out last year, I think, Fall of 2022, and I hadn’t read it. And I started reading it in the middle of the night.

Nancy Pearl [00:30:14]:
And then I realized that I needed to see the physical book because I I I it was just so gorgeously written and so heartbreaking that I didn’t that reading it on a Kindle Wasn’t it doing it any favors? You know? So so I go back and forth. You know, when I travel, like, everybody now, I take, you know, I take my Kindle and not any physical books.

Scott Cowan [00:30:45]:
Well, you can carry I think I have three Thousand books on my account. You know? Right. It’s just you know, it’s, like the good thing about that is that I have 3,000 books on the account. The bad thing is I have 3,000 books on the account.

Nancy Pearl [00:30:56]:
Right.

Scott Cowan [00:30:56]:
I don’t I I tend to feel even more distracted because I’ve got other choices waiting. If this doesn’t grab me grab me at the moment, I’d jump over to something else. Right. Damn. Alright.

Nancy Pearl [00:31:09]:
And I also listen. I’m a huge audiobook person. And I sometimes, I think that I love listening to books Even more than I love reading them. But going back to that same Michael Parker book, I am the light of this world, I don’t think I I don’t think I could listen to it because I needed to savor the words in a way that it’s hard to savor when you’re

Scott Cowan [00:31:42]:
listening. I was gonna just ask you about audiobooks and and and books. Have you ever, Read a book and then listened to the audio or vice versa. Have you ever consumed the Often. Okay. So to me, it’s it’s It’s oftentimes a very different experience. I read Actually, I listened to it. 1st was A Gentleman in Moscow.

Nancy Pearl [00:32:08]:
Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:32:10]:
And it was a beautiful book to listen to, a a truly Beautiful book. I I enjoyed the story a great deal. And then I bought the the the candle

Nancy Pearl [00:32:20]:
book, and I

Scott Cowan [00:32:22]:
I enjoyed it in a com in a completely different way, and it was it was good that way too. And as much as, like, this can be Not a good thing in some ways maybe, but I kinda hope that that ends up being a movie because I think it’s a I think it’s a great story that would do well on the screen too. But that was the 1st book for me that I went. Boy, these are just very they’re the same it’s the same story. It’s the same words Going through my brain and triggering different different thoughts and emotions. And so now when I find a book, I tend to read first most of the time, but then I’ll go grab the audio copy of it and and listen to it or at least try to listen to it. I think I read very fast, So an audiobook kinda can get it can kinda drag sometimes. Other times, it’s it’s even better.

Scott Cowan [00:33:17]:
But So you so you do the audiobook thing too. Okay.

Nancy Pearl [00:33:22]:
And mostly, the audiobooks that I do are books that I’ve already read.

Scott Cowan [00:33:26]:
Okay.

Nancy Pearl [00:33:27]:
And then mostly would see my when you’re reading a book, when you’re physically reading a book, The it’s between you and the author. You know, the 2 of you are creating the book that you read. And And when you’re listening, you’ve now added a third person into that conversation. And so often, Whether you like a book or not will depend on whether you like the reader. So, You know, one of my all time favorite authors to listen to and to read is Terry Pratchett. I don’t know if you’ve read any of his

Scott Cowan [00:34:14]:
Long time ago.

Nancy Pearl [00:34:15]:
Yeah. So I probably listen to The, you know, maybe 12 Terry Pratchett books that are my favorite, you know, once a year at least. Because just listening, you can really even you can appreciate the, you know, the humor And the satire even more than you can when you’re, when you’re reading. So to reread something, go do it all through my listening audio.

Scott Cowan [00:34:50]:
Where? How do you consume audiobooks? I mean, do you have it on your phone, or do you play

Nancy Pearl [00:34:57]:
Yeah. So I do these Sort of monster walks. I’m a late adopter of audiobooks Mhmm. Well after everybody else was listening. Sure. But especially during the pandemic well, I’m I would say maybe the last 5 or 6 years. I’ve been doing these long, like, Seven and a half mile walks every day. Wow.

Nancy Pearl [00:35:22]:
And and I listen to books. Okay. And, You know, when you’re listening to a Terry Pratchett book and you don’t want it to end and you don’t wanna stop, you just walk a little further. Another author that I’ve listened to over and over and over again is a woman named Georgette Heyer, Who is kind of the best known, well, she invented the Regency romance. And but she was a fantastic historian as well. Anyway, so I listened to all of those, and And that’s one way that I can consume all of these books. Like, right now, I’m going through you know, I’ve read all of the Agatha Christie books Several times. I got the Christie mystery several times, but now I’m listening to her oof.

Nancy Pearl [00:36:14]:
And because they’re all, like, 6 or 7 hours long, I have arranged my life in such a way that I can basically do a book a day if I want to. So I, you know, consume a lot on these walks. And then, you know, because I’m basically retired. So I spend a lot of time doing A 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzles, which also means that I can listen, when I’m doing the jigsaw puzzles. So

Scott Cowan [00:36:44]:
Do you listen do you ever speed them up?

Nancy Pearl [00:36:47]:
No. I don’t. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:36:49]:
Yeah. I mean I

Nancy Pearl [00:36:50]:
tried that Oh, I was gonna say I stick in, like, a basketball podcast Monday, Wednesday, and Friday because that’s when what my favorite podcaster is on. So I have to stick that in, which is probably slowing down a little bit the That’s getting through her oomph.

Scott Cowan [00:37:11]:
Alright. So I was gonna bring this up later, but you you you dropped the ball, so to speak. When we talked on the phone, you you said to me you don’t listen to a lot of podcasts. Right. But you listen to a football and a basketball podcast. Right. And I’m stereotyping you. That’s not what I would have expected you to say you were listening to.

Scott Cowan [00:37:37]:
So and you also said you like pro football and pro basketball. Right. We might have a little bit of friction here because I’m a longtime Sonix fan, and I feel very Bitter about

Nancy Pearl [00:37:50]:
that. Well, me too.

Scott Cowan [00:37:53]:
Who who who are you following? Who’s your I’ll put you on the spot. Who’s your favorite NBA team?

Nancy Pearl [00:37:58]:
Oh, my favorite NBA team, Golden State. And and and because because of the A lot because of the coach, because I think Steve Kerr is absolutely just wonderful. And, I think I can tell that’s not your favorite.

Scott Cowan [00:38:21]:
Well, too close to Seattle. You know, it’s but okay. Golden State Warriors. Okay. What about your favorite football team?

Nancy Pearl [00:38:30]:
Well, the Detroit Lions.

Scott Cowan [00:38:31]:
Well, see, I was thinking maybe we could say the Detroit Pistons, to

Nancy Pearl [00:38:34]:
be fair. Oh, yeah. You know? But, Really, I what what I like about about football and basketball, I’m, like, in it for the For the people. Like, what I for the soap opera. Somebody once said that. You know? I I’m, like, in it for Soap opera. So, I mean, I want Golden State to win, and I want the lions to win, but I don’t really care. You know, I just like finding out you know, I like the fact that Clay Thompson, you know, came back from these 2, you know, more than 2 years debilitating injuries.

Nancy Pearl [00:39:21]:
I mean, I I’m interested in I I’m just interest you know, I’m interested in

Scott Cowan [00:39:27]:
people Mhmm.

Nancy Pearl [00:39:28]:
In general.

Scott Cowan [00:39:29]:
K. You know?

Nancy Pearl [00:39:32]:
And and I don’t know any of these these people at all, but I I like You know, I’m a character person. I’m a character person in my reading, and I’m a character person in my in my life. Like the like the baristas at my Starbucks that I go to every day

Scott Cowan [00:39:52]:
Mhmm.

Nancy Pearl [00:39:53]:
Because it’s halfway on my 7 mile Right? I mean, I’m like their grandmother. You know? Like, I I just I love them, And they love me, and I care about them, you know, and I know about them. And it’s, you know, very hard when one leaves because, you know, Like, oh my gosh. So so I just like yeah. I’m interested in people.

Scott Cowan [00:40:19]:
And Okay. Yeah. Do you so how do you consume sports? TV? Do you like to go to games in person? Do you listen to it on the radio?

Nancy Pearl [00:40:31]:
I I TV. Like, I don’t like to go

Scott Cowan [00:40:35]:
out at

Nancy Pearl [00:40:36]:
all of the house.

Scott Cowan [00:40:37]:
Okay. So other than the 7 mile walk everyday?

Nancy Pearl [00:40:41]:
Other than the 7 mile walk. Right. Right. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:40:45]:
So TV. So I’m I love baseball, and I think I get more enjoyment out of a baseball game when I just read the stats Yeah. The next day, I, as a kid, grew up you know, my parents had a friend who had a subscription to Sports Illustrated, and he would give me all his old Sports Illustrated. So I would lug them home and Devour them from cover to cover.

Nancy Pearl [00:41:05]:
Me too.

Scott Cowan [00:41:09]:
And, you know, and then I would grab the paper and and Read, you know, the stats. It was just the stats, for me that it got me hooked on and the history of baseball. The the characters in the in the sport, Not always good characters. So you mentioned Steve Kerr, which, you know, I’ll give you credit. He seems he seems like a Good human being. Is there 1 athlete that you current or past that you would like to sit down and Have a meal with?

Nancy Pearl [00:41:46]:
Good question. I I there isn’t anybody that comes to mind. Okay. I mean, I think, like, going to dinner with Gregg Popovich And Steve Kerr. Mhmm. That would be really interesting. Okay. I know as soon as we stop this, I’m gonna think of somebody that I would love to meet.

Nancy Pearl [00:42:16]:
Oh, well.

Scott Cowan [00:42:18]:
I I I’ll I’m gonna share this one. This is so back in the in the nineties, for fun, I worked at ACAD Software. You remember Egghead Software back in nineties? And I worked at the store over on Bellevue in Bellevue by by the Microsoft campus. Microsoft people all the time coming in. No. It’s fine. And there was a a game called Hardball 5, which was a baseball simulator. And when it was slow in the store, we’d load up a copy of it, and me and another guy that were were became good work buddies, And we would always play home run derby.

Scott Cowan [00:42:56]:
Okay. So we’d be you know, I’ll be, you know, insert name of a mariner today and you insert name of, you know, red sox. And we’d see how many home runs we could hit. And so one day, we’re getting it set up, and I turn around, and in the front door of the store comes Edgar Martinez. And the guy I was working with, his name is Joey. Joey. Joey. Change it to Edgar.

Nancy Pearl [00:43:21]:
Change it to Edgar.

Scott Cowan [00:43:23]:
Edgar comes in, and he’s looking for software for his his wife. And he walks over to the to the computer, and I wish I could I wish I could do Edgar’s voice. I just can’t. But you know how Edgar’s got that That that Puerto Rican dialect I don’t know. You know, it just how we talk, and he goes, Is that me?

Nancy Pearl [00:43:44]:
Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:43:45]:
And we’re like, yeah. He goes, can I try? Sure. So here’s Edgar Martinez playing Edgar Martinez. And it was just and so we’re just standing there, and, you know, this is before cell phones, and this is before, you know, you know, we We could livestream it, and the world would become, you know, oh my gosh. And so he he finishes up, and he goes, that’s pretty realistic. It looks pretty good. And so he’s checking out, and and I said, hey. Can I bug in? He goes, yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:44:13]:
What’s up? I go, can you autograph a box for me? Go, sure. So he autograph and we go, Hey. Just autograph them all. He he autographed all the boxes in the store. Wow. I would love to sit down with Edgar Martinez and repeat that story because I remember like it was yesterday. He probably won’t. Right.

Scott Cowan [00:44:27]:
But, Edgar, if you’re listening, I’ve tried to reach you. Please come on the show. Okay. But that’s for me, Edgar Martinez would be the our Roberto Clemente Mhmm. Would be my 2. So you’re a book person. You’re a librarian. You’re a superhero.

Scott Cowan [00:44:48]:
Not that these are mutually exclusive, but how did you get into sports?

Nancy Pearl [00:44:51]:
Oh, you know, Well, I grew up, you know, I grew up in Detroit when when the Tigers were pretty good, and I we did go to Tiger Stadium Occasionally. Mhmm. My father was a huge roller derby fan. Oh. And so We, my sister and I, became huge roller derby fans too that we would watch on television, you know, the whip. And and, again, it’s It’s the roller derby. You know, it’s the people. Mhmm.

Nancy Pearl [00:45:25]:
But, you you know, the women who were roller dirt you know, doing roller derby then, and, You know, it’s their stories and their background and all of that. And so that, that was how, that was that was pretty much how I think was, you know, roller derby, The Pistons, Isaiah Thomas, you know, the bad boys Right. Michigan, You know, the Fab 5, all of that.

Scott Cowan [00:45:57]:
Yeah. Oh, and you’ve had that that that Detroit area had a I I mean, that that we won’t talk about the Tigers right now, but

Nancy Pearl [00:46:04]:
Right. Right.

Scott Cowan [00:46:05]:
Had great great success in the in the lions. I’m sorry. The lions aren’t.

Nancy Pearl [00:46:09]:
Yeah. They’ll be good this year, though.

Scott Cowan [00:46:11]:
They’re they’re Tampa’s a good They’re kind of like a jinxed team or something. They just can’t seem to catch a break. Kinda like the Mariners were for 21 years.

Nancy Pearl [00:46:20]:
Right. Right.

Scott Cowan [00:46:22]:
So I just think it’s I just think I when I was when you mentioned sports on the 1st phone call, I was just like, And it it I think it’s so the podcast that you listen to, what is it about the podcast? Are they are they team specific podcasts, or are they league specific? Or

Nancy Pearl [00:46:38]:
Well, I did used to listen to, team specific podcasts. K. But then I decided well, the one that I listen to now pretty much is, I’m the only basketball podcast that I’m listening to currently is, the Hoop Collective, which is Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays now. Brian Windhorst is the host, and and there’s, you know, not a lot of, you know, good old boys, You know, I mean, there’s a lot about people, you know, the football players and what’s happening and, you know, and what’s gonna happen. And I think I, you know, I listen to that. Okay. I and then I I listen to the, you know, the NFL today

Scott Cowan [00:47:31]:
Okay. Which, you

Nancy Pearl [00:47:35]:
know, it’s hard listening to football in the off season.

Scott Cowan [00:47:38]:
Oh, it is? I enjoy Football in the off season. Yeah. Like, I’m kind of enjoying this whole free agency thing right now and Yeah. Yeah. The the hope that The Seahawks will, I don’t know, make a big splash in the draft. You know? Yeah. It’s like Spring training for baseball. It’s like they’re undefeated.

Scott Cowan [00:47:58]:
They’re they they’re gonna win it all, and then they come out and they

Nancy Pearl [00:48:01]:
don’t. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:48:06]:
So you’re, you’re also you’re a

Nancy Pearl [00:48:11]:
writer. I’m

Scott Cowan [00:48:12]:
And you’re a Reviewer, you have a TV show. We’ll call it a TV show. You started writing years ago.

Nancy Pearl [00:48:25]:
Right? Yes. K.

Scott Cowan [00:48:29]:
What was the what was the inspiration to be to be a writer besides besides besides a reader but writing?

Nancy Pearl [00:48:39]:
So so when I was a kid, I I wrote. You know? I wrote poetry mainly. And, you know, and got certain awards for that. And but poetry just sort of came naturally to me. It was something that, you know, I mean, they weren’t bad poems for, You know, a depressed 13 year old. And and so I wrote poetry all through college. And then into my thirties, I was still writing poetry, but then the lines that came into my head were not did not seem to me to be lines of poetry. They seem to me to be lines of prose.

Nancy Pearl [00:49:28]:
And so for, You know, a long, long, long time, I have not written any poetry. K.

Scott Cowan [00:49:35]:
Do you think that that might Happen again?

Nancy Pearl [00:49:37]:
I don’t know. That’s that’s it’s

Scott Cowan [00:49:40]:
interesting. Okay. So the lines are still pros right now for

Nancy Pearl [00:49:44]:
you? The lines seem to be still pros. K. Yeah. Yeah. And I still have 1 unfinished poem from, like, 30 years ago, Do you ever

Scott Cowan [00:49:55]:
do you ever go back and look at it and

Nancy Pearl [00:49:57]:
Yeah. I think about it all the time.

Scott Cowan [00:49:59]:
Do you? And nothing in 30 years is

Nancy Pearl [00:50:01]:
what to do with it.

Scott Cowan [00:50:03]:
Nothing’s popped in in 30

Nancy Pearl [00:50:04]:
years. Uh-uh. Interesting. Yeah. And then, you know, the book less Books, the 4 books of book recommendations. Mhmm. That was the really the brainchild of the, then an editor at Sasquatch books here in Seattle, Gary Luke, called me and said, you know, because I was then on KUOW and just doing, You know, sort of making a a kind of name for myself doing book you know, talking about books. And he said, You know, really, I’d love it if you could do just a book of book recommendations, you know, 300 300 different quirky categories, 300 words, you know, in each category.

Nancy Pearl [00:50:50]:
And, I mean, it just seemed like, You know, I just sort of sat at my computer and looked at my bookshelves and came up with categories, and it was so much fun to write. And, and then followed that up with more booklust Mhmm. Which is really just an awful you know, what a boring title. I had wanted it to be called booklust 2 the morning after, but But, you know, they felt that wasn’t such a good idea. So it was book less more book less. And then I did one for kids called Book Crush, And then I did booklust to go, which is adventure, you know, travel adventure, armchair travel, all of that. And so, those 4, you know, those were just great. The last 1 was book less to go was published, like, I in 2010.

Nancy Pearl [00:51:45]:
But they’re just you know, they’re all my favorite books. I love them. I love all the books there.

Scott Cowan [00:51:51]:
So I I know what I’m about to ask you. It’s probably not impossible, but it’s probably gonna be darn difficult. Over your lifetime, how many books do you think you’ve completed?

Nancy Pearl [00:52:07]:
It’s a

Scott Cowan [00:52:08]:
good All the way through. Because I One of the things you talk about is not having to read a book just because you started it. And I love your and I’m gonna ask you to just you have this little formula. Right. So but through your years of reading

Nancy Pearl [00:52:25]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:52:26]:
Because you just said you 300 books, and they were you looked around your house. So I’ve got this vision that you’ve got a lot of books. I mean, you’re sitting

Nancy Pearl [00:52:31]:
in front of

Scott Cowan [00:52:32]:
a book

Nancy Pearl [00:52:32]:
chase. You know, I looked at the books on the shelf, and they reminded me of other books. Okay. But I’m not a book collector in any way, shape, or

Scott Cowan [00:52:40]:
form. Even though you’re sitting in front of a bookcase right now. Anyway Right. Okay. Right. I almost So How many what do you what do you think? Do you have a a wild guess?

Nancy Pearl [00:52:48]:
No. Uh-uh. I don’t know. K. I don’t know. It’s

Scott Cowan [00:52:52]:
weird. Okay. So This is the

Nancy Pearl [00:52:55]:
quick Basically, Scott, that is all that I have ever done. Mhmm. You know? Period. I’m I, You know, I’m no good at parties or anything like that because all I can talk about It’s books.

Scott Cowan [00:53:13]:
Okay. Well, I think you’re being a little too hard on

Nancy Pearl [00:53:16]:
yourself. Well

Scott Cowan [00:53:18]:
So can you please explain your your your formula Yes. To the audience.

Nancy Pearl [00:53:23]:
Yes. So, my belief is that you should not force yourself to finish a book If you’re not enjoying it. And on KuOW, Steve Scherer, who was the host that I was on most frequently with we every like, once a month, we would do an hour show, and we would take phone calls. And one day, this woman called and said, you know, I’m reading this book that I’m not liking, but I feel like I feel too guilty to give up on it. How many pages should I read before I can so I came up with this, you know I mean, basically, like, for a joke. Mhmm. Although it has been taken so seriously now, that if you’re if you’re 50 and under, You should give a book 50 pages. And at the bottom of page 50, you should ask yourself, am I enjoying this book? And if you are, go on and read it.

Nancy Pearl [00:54:23]:
If If you’re not enjoying it, stop. You know? I the government knows a lot about us, but they Don’t know whether we’ve returned a book unfinished to the library or not. You know?

Scott Cowan [00:54:40]:
Well, Now with ebooks, they probably

Nancy Pearl [00:54:42]:
do. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. But this was, like, pre Yeah. And and then I and then, you know, if all you care about you know, you’re, like, at 50 pages and you wonder, well, who the murderer is, Turn to the last page. You know? Or maybe all you care about is who marries whom.

Nancy Pearl [00:55:04]:
Turn to the last page. I mean, basically, If it’s not on the last page, do the penultimate page and then the anti penult you know, until you find out what it is you wanna know. But there is no I mean, reading should be a joy. Mhmm. It should not be a feeling that, oh my god. I’ve gotta get through this book. So that worked. That Fifty page rule worked really well until I started getting older and then much older, and so I added a second half to that.

Nancy Pearl [00:55:35]:
And so if you’re 51 and up, subtract your age from 100, and that number, which gets smaller every year as time gets shorter every year. That number is the pay is the number You pages you should read before you guiltlessly give up on a book. And then when you turn 100, You can legitimately judge a book by its cover, which I thought was pretty funny and clever. But you I don’t know if you remember. Many several years ago now, Starbucks put authors’ quotes on on, their cups. And so that 50 page rule quote, is on cup a venti cup, actually, 69.

Scott Cowan [00:56:25]:
Cup 69. Kidding me? Nope. Oh, wow. Okay. So as a reader, as you’ve gotten older Right. Are you less forgiving of a book?

Nancy Pearl [00:56:41]:
Oh my god. Yes. Okay. I mean, many is the time that I will read, I don’t know, I don’t know, 13 page. I mean, not corresponding to my age, but, like, read I mean, I will read a book until I get annoyed with either the authorial quirks There’s something about the book I’m not enjoying or it’s getting too weird or scary, and then I’ll stop. And most often now, what I’ll do is just read the last page to see what happens and skip all the middle All the middle parts. And but but a book that I love, you know, that I’m gonna be talking about on, you know, book talks to people, then I read the whole book. But

Scott Cowan [00:57:29]:
Right.

Nancy Pearl [00:57:30]:
I you know, time is really short, and there’s you know, these are all prepublication books

Scott Cowan [00:57:36]:
that Mhmm. So So you’ve written a

Nancy Pearl [00:57:42]:
novel. Right.

Scott Cowan [00:57:46]:
As the author of the novel so once again, I asked these questions or not intentionally hard. I just know as soon as I’m gonna say, I’m like, oh, these are really putting the Guest on the spot, but what the heck? Are you happy with the way the novel turned out?

Nancy Pearl [00:58:01]:
I I actually loved George and Lizzie. I and I love the characters in George and Lizzie. And in many ways, You know, I was thrilled that it was published by Simon and Schuster. Mhmm. I thought, you know, they did a great job. I had the best editor there, The person who, you know, bought the book for Simon and Schuster, she just was

Scott Cowan [00:58:26]:
terrific.

Nancy Pearl [00:58:27]:
K. I mean, just absolutely wonderful. And And yet, in a way, I wish it hadn’t been published because I I would love to go on writing about them, Because I I still think about George and Lizzie all the time. And the book started because I would these characters just came into my head, And I would tell myself stories about them when I was falling asleep. And just over and over and over again, I would tell myself, you know, these stories and not writing anything down for years. And then one one day, I was going through you know, we go through these periodic, times when you can’t find anything good to read. You know, to read, but you’re looking for a book and there’s nothing that Right. Satisfying that need for a particular whatever the particular kind of book is.

Nancy Pearl [00:59:30]:
And, you know, that was happening to me. And, you know, I would look at my bookshelves. I would go to the bookstore. I would go to the library. I just couldn’t find anything. And then I thought, you know, oh my god. In my head, I have a book that I would love, and I started writing. You know, that night, I started you know, I sat down and wrote, you know, the first sentence of the book, which begins, you know, chapter 1, how they met.

Scott Cowan [00:59:59]:
And Wasn’t it a dark and stormy night?

Nancy Pearl [01:00:01]:
Yeah. Right. It’s a very it’s a very Quirky. You know, there are people who loved it, and Mhmm. There are people who it was too character driven, you know, too I mean, people like books that need books Mhmm. For different reasons. Sure. And I was, you know, prepared for people not to like it.

Nancy Pearl [01:00:23]:
As as a librarian and knowing my own reading of what I like and what I don’t, I wrote a book that I would like to read.

Scott Cowan [01:00:31]:
Now I gotta ask you. I haven’t read the book. So, you know, you said in a way you wish it hadn’t been published because you could keep on writing about. What’s really why couldn’t you Right. Tell another story with them?

Nancy Pearl [01:00:47]:
Yeah. Right. So So one of the things that I’ve been thinking about doing, you know, when I’m not thinking about that unfinished poem in my head, I think about one of the kind of minor characters in George and Lizzie. There’s a guy named, Maverick, who was, a football player, a high school football player, and then a not very successful college player. And then I thought, you know, gee, it would be really great, or wouldn’t it be fun to see him at age like 40? Mhmm. Never having become the kind of player that, you know, he he he’d never never you know, being a good high school player, But not going to Ohio State or Michigan. You know, it’s set in Ann Arbor.

Scott Cowan [01:01:39]:
So if he was gonna go to Ohio State, he wasn’t gonna be a very good

Nancy Pearl [01:01:42]:
Exactly. And he didn’t go to Michigan. And and but he, you know, and he was kind of a journeyman football player. And when the when, You know, and I see him now as being a podcast host sports podcast host in Seattle. And, you know, that would give me a chance To really, you know, make fun of you know, play with that, how much fun it would

Scott Cowan [01:02:05]:
I’m not taking any offense to this at all. Right.

Nancy Pearl [01:02:08]:
No. You’re not a sports podcast. So No. No. You know? Anyway but then I think, In some ways, I’ve locked him into a particular age and whatever Because of George and Lizzie, and I haven’t yet figured out or it’s a lot of work to write fiction. It’s really hard. So anyway but I think about Maverick a lot.

Scott Cowan [01:02:35]:
Okay. On the Seattle Channel, your book Lust Twist Nancy Pearl. Right. You sit down and you interview authors. Right. How long have you been doing

Nancy Pearl [01:02:46]:
this show? Since 2004.

Scott Cowan [01:02:51]:
Really? Yeah. That’s amazing. That’s awesome. Yeah. What about it do you enjoy? Well, you’ve been doing it almost 20

Nancy Pearl [01:03:03]:
years. Yeah. Right. I enjoy Talking to the authors about not necessarily focusing On the book, you know, that that we have in front of us, but just finding out the kind of people that they

Scott Cowan [01:03:24]:
are. K.

Nancy Pearl [01:03:25]:
I mean, really, for me, it always comes back to the people. K. And so Yeah.

Scott Cowan [01:03:34]:
K. I asked you who if there was an athlete an athlete that you would wanna meet. Is there an author, Past or present that you’d

Nancy Pearl [01:03:44]:
wanna So so years years ago, I interviewed Terry Pratchett, which was really And but in fact, it probably isn’t a bad interview, but I fawned over him. I mean, I didn’t ask him. I mean, like, I would always assign my students when we were talking about fantasy and science fiction in the class that classes that I taught at UW. I would always ask my students to watch that interview because there was a lot about fantasy and all that. And, you know, my students would always say, oh my god, Nancy. It was just sickening because you just pawned over him. And and plus, I mean, I didn’t get I I just would have loved to just talk to him more. I mean, he’s he’s he was a brilliant, brilliant writer, and it would be a better world if everybody read Terry Pratchett’s, especially the ones with Sam Vimes.

Nancy Pearl [01:04:53]:
So yeah. So I would love to to see him again, But he’s dead, so that will not be possible. Right. Yeah. I I you know, Oftentimes, the half an hour is just the right

Scott Cowan [01:05:15]:
amount. Mhmm. K.

Nancy Pearl [01:05:17]:
And sometimes it isn’t enough, and sometimes it’s too much. So

Scott Cowan [01:05:24]:
I also saw somewhere it and I’m gonna butcher what your the the phrase that you were credited with. It’s something about though, you you recommend it’s if so Neo Master by William Gibson. Yeah.

Nancy Pearl [01:05:43]:
Why? Well, I you know, I I interviewed William Gibson, and I it wasn’t for the TV show. It was for a public thing. And and I I don’t get nervous, you know, anymore. Like, I interviewed Tom Hanks in at the Seattle Opera Mhmm. House a couple years ago for his collection of shirt stories, and I I don’t I really don’t get nervous about that about interviewing. But I was really nervous about William Gibson because I know I figured he didn’t suffer fools gladly, and I didn’t want, you know, to ask stupid questions. Mhmm. So that was a little bit challenging.

Nancy Pearl [01:06:27]:
But I came to William Gibson Only after I had fallen in love with Neal Stephenson’s cryptonomicon, which is, again, one of my, I would say, 10 favorite you know, 10 all time favorite books. Wow. I loved I loved Cryptonomicon. And, oh, because it’s historic it’s a historical novel. It’s,

Scott Cowan [01:06:56]:
Oh, good. It’s great. It’s a great book.

Nancy Pearl [01:06:58]:
Yeah. It’s a great book. And Neuromancer, you know, really the kind of punk part of science fiction, I I think was really great in those books.

Scott Cowan [01:07:12]:
Have have you read Gibson’s other

Nancy Pearl [01:07:14]:
works? I I read some mostly, yes, I have. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [01:07:24]:
I enjoy his books in a very awkward. I have a very awkward relationship with them. They’re just kind of I feel like I’m I’m I’m riding a Car with bad shocks on a dirty road or dirt road. They got bouncing around. I’m not quite sure I’m get and and he weaves things together. Yeah. I when I saw that, I was like, oh, yeah. I remember when I first read that, and it was so, groundbreaking sounds a

Nancy Pearl [01:07:56]:
little cranny. It was groundbreaking.

Scott Cowan [01:07:57]:
But it was it really was, and it was, like, wow. And I’m not a science fiction fan. Yeah. I I really Neil Neil and and and and William Gibson are the only 2 authors that I that I read.

Nancy Pearl [01:08:09]:
Uh-huh.

Scott Cowan [01:08:12]:
That way so you interview wow. That’s that’s very cool. So We’ve talked about you this whole show. We really haven’t talked about Washington State, which is really unusual for me. We gotta talk about Washington State for a little bit. You say you go on long walks, and halfway through, you go to Starbucks. I know you’re a tea drinker, though. So you’re not going there for coffee,

Nancy Pearl [01:08:32]:
are you?

Scott Cowan [01:08:33]:
No. K. But you also told me on the phone that your granddaughter brought coffee into the house.

Nancy Pearl [01:08:39]:
She did.

Scott Cowan [01:08:42]:
Didn’t didn’t work on you? Didn’t it didn’t couldn’t convert you over to the

Nancy Pearl [01:08:47]:
No. No. So What

Scott Cowan [01:08:49]:
do you drink at Starbucks? What’s your what’s your go to drink when you’re on a walk?

Nancy Pearl [01:08:52]:
Oh, it it’s this is all I ever get at Starbucks. So It’s a, an English breakfast tea k. A tall English breakfast tea in a venti cup With with water almost up to the top and 3 Splendas and some very foamy steamed nonfat milk that they can scoop on. Interesting. Really an Anglophile, so it’s always

Scott Cowan [01:09:18]:
Interesting. Okay. Alright. You stumped me. I I don’t have a I don’t have a retort. I’ve never heard anybody drink A a beverage. So I used to work at Starbucks, in their in their corporate offices many years ago, and and part of the training back then and part of the reason I wanted to work there was that I got this coffee training, because I love coffee. And part of my, you know, initiation to the to the the The company I had to go work in one of the stores.

Scott Cowan [01:09:52]:
I had to go work in the store in West Seattle just just for a night. I only had to do a night. And I think this person must have been a plant. I think they must send this person into all all new Bruce. And I can’t remember what it was, but I’m not exaggerating when I say it was like, I’d like a Venti Mocha with 6 shots of this and 4 pumps of that and 2 Splendas and a And, in a sweet and low and pure cane sugar, but you need to put it in the and it was, like, You know, why would you know, I’d like black coffee. But, you know, so but your drink, I’ve never heard that combination. It’s pretty pretty interesting, actually. So I don’t think I’m offending anybody when I say Starbucks isn’t really known for tea.

Scott Cowan [01:10:41]:
Where’s a great place for tea in

Nancy Pearl [01:10:43]:
Seattle? Oh, see, I only go to Starbucks. Really? Yeah.

Scott Cowan [01:10:47]:
You don’t you don’t go to the well, so what tea do you drink at home? Do you drink tea at home?

Nancy Pearl [01:10:52]:
Well, I drink Trader Joe’s Irish breakfast

Scott Cowan [01:10:55]:
tea. Okay. Okay. So you’re not somebody that’s gonna go to these, like, coffee shops? I mean, I I mean, no disrespect to tea, but, like, these high end coffee shops that are very, you

Nancy Pearl [01:11:05]:
know Right. Right. No. I’m just a creature of

Scott Cowan [01:11:10]:
habit. Okay. Alright. And I

Nancy Pearl [01:11:14]:
and, you know, I know about all the union issues, etcetera, that that are bedeviling.

Scott Cowan [01:11:22]:
Yeah. I mean

Nancy Pearl [01:11:23]:
And my sympathies are with all with the baristas.

Scott Cowan [01:11:28]:
So They work really hard for what they do.

Nancy Pearl [01:11:31]:
They

Scott Cowan [01:11:31]:
do. They work really hard for what they do. I remember, and I’m not gonna get it exactly right, but If you were to buy a latte at Starbucks, a tall latte, what do you think the most expensive component of that latte was?

Nancy Pearl [01:11:49]:
The barista’s time.

Scott Cowan [01:11:51]:
Now the cup.

Nancy Pearl [01:11:52]:
Oh, the cup.

Scott Cowan [01:11:53]:
Yeah. The barista was, like, 7th or 8th on the list.

Nancy Pearl [01:11:56]:
Oh, wow.

Scott Cowan [01:11:57]:
The cup was the the bulk. The coffee was the coffee and the barista are much lower. It was like coffee or excuse me. Cup, milk, Lid, coffee, barista. I mean, some some somewhere like that. It was it was I was I was dumbfounded when I found out the cup was the most expensive thing. Anyway okay. When you’re not reading, which Uh-huh.

Scott Cowan [01:12:23]:
Might also go to a dead end too. But when you’re not reading, what do you like to do for fun? What do you and your husband like to go to? Walk. Does he go with you on your walks normally?

Nancy Pearl [01:12:34]:
Every on Sunday, he he’s a bicyclist. Okay. And and his goal is when he when he turns 80, He wants to have ridden 80,000 miles.

Scott Cowan [01:12:46]:
So Okay.

Nancy Pearl [01:12:47]:
Which he will which he will do.

Scott Cowan [01:12:50]:
Has he ever done the sale to Portland?

Nancy Pearl [01:12:51]:
Oh, we we both of us did it twice.

Scott Cowan [01:12:54]:
Okay. Did you complete it in one day, or was it 2 years?

Nancy Pearl [01:12:57]:
No. No. Not one day. I’m a slow but steady

Scott Cowan [01:13:00]:
rider. That that’s all it

Nancy Pearl [01:13:01]:
matters. But it got too dangerous to bicycle, which is why I started

Scott Cowan [01:13:05]:
walking. Mhmm.

Nancy Pearl [01:13:06]:
So, I felt too scared on my bike, but he continues to bike. Yeah. Yeah. Like, You know, like, my ideal vacation is to go to England and walk on one of the national paths that they have or, You know, do a canal walk. Like, 1 year, we walked from Leeds to Liverpool, which is about a 150 miles. Oh, wow. On the canal you know, on the on the towpath next to the

Scott Cowan [01:13:36]:
canal. That would be that

Nancy Pearl [01:13:38]:
would be No.

Scott Cowan [01:13:38]:
Interesting. Did you ever stay in one of the canal boats? Have you ever?

Nancy Pearl [01:13:42]:
No. No. But we were we were invited aboard to see what it was like, and then they took us Somewhere some you know, some way about, you know, a couple miles down the canal so we could see what it was like. I’d love to do that, But I really love to walk

Scott Cowan [01:14:00]:
more. So So in the photos I’ve seen of you Yeah. You appear to be short.

Nancy Pearl [01:14:05]:
I am very short. Okay. Getting shorter every day.

Scott Cowan [01:14:08]:
And I’m I’m very tall, so these boats don’t sound like they’d be fun for me. Right. Did it seem claustrophobic to you, though?

Nancy Pearl [01:14:15]:
It is a little claustrophobic. They are narrow boats because the canals are narrow. Mhmm. Probably would not enjoy it.

Scott Cowan [01:14:23]:
Yeah. I I’d love the idea of it. I just don’t think the the reality for me is okay. So Typically wrap these up because we respect your time around all of it. So couple of questions. Number 1, what didn’t I ask you that I should have asked you that we should have brought up.

Nancy Pearl [01:14:43]:
I don’t think there’s anything. Really? I don’t think there’s anything. I think we had a nice wide ranging discussion.

Scott Cowan [01:14:52]:
That’s the goal. Okay. Alright. This is a very important question. Cake or pie, and why?

Nancy Pearl [01:15:04]:
Okay. I would say cookies. But if I have to choose between cake and pie, I would say or that’s that’s harder because I was gonna say cake because of the frosting. Okay. But pie because you didn’t get such good, like, apple pie and, I don’t know. Impossible. An impossible question.

Scott Cowan [01:15:32]:
So you like cookies, though. So what type of

Nancy Pearl [01:15:34]:
cookies? I I I’m I’m not a big chocolate chip fan, But peanut butter cookies, I love.

Scott Cowan [01:15:40]:
Peanut

Nancy Pearl [01:15:40]:
butter. And snickerdoodles, I

Scott Cowan [01:15:42]:
love. Okay. Alright. And if people wanna find out more about you that assuming that they, like myself, didn’t know a whole lot about you before this conversation, Where’s a good place for people to find you

Nancy Pearl [01:15:56]:
online? So I think they should just Google Nancy Pearl, and and it’s there. I don’t have a website anymore Because I just wasn’t doing anything with it. Okay. So

Scott Cowan [01:16:08]:
Nancy, thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me today. It was a it was a lot of fun.

Nancy Pearl [01:16:14]:
Yep.