Meet Author Tom Llewellyn: “The Five Impossible Tasks of Eden Smith” and Living in Tacoma

Delve into Tom’s creative journey as a fiction author and his role in Tacoma’s street art project, Beautiful Angle.

Discover the inspiration behind “The 5 Impossible Tasks of Edin Smith” and how Tom infused his late relatives’ personalities into the charming characters of the book. The setting for the book is inspired by Tacoma’s very own Rust Mansion.

As the conversation unfolds, Tom mesmerizes us with Tacoma’s rich music history, from being an “incubator city” for budding musicians to hosting iconic performances by Nirvana and Loretta Lynn.

Curious about Tom’s writing process? He spills the beans about typing amidst bustling commutes and coffee shop buzz.

Join us as Tom shares insights about his writing routine, the empowering experience of embracing the editing process, and the delicate art of balancing creativity with strategic book promotion.

He also sheds light on the thriving literary community and mentions top-notch independent bookstores like King’s Books Tacoma and the new High Voltage Records and Books on Sixth Avenue.

Are you ready to take a refreshing plunge into the chilly waters of Puget Sound? Tom Llewellyn shares his exhilarating cold plunging experiences at a stretch of water near Jack Hyde Park.

With a dash of humor, Tom reveals his secret to enduring 10-15 minutes in the cold water and the simple joy he finds in this invigorating ritual.

If you are a fan of Tacoma, music, books, and good conversation you need to listen to this episode.

Connect With  Tom Llewellyn

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Episode Transcript

Scott Cowan [00:00:04]:

Hello, friends, and welcome to the exploring Washington State podcast. My name is Scott Cowan, and I’m the host of the show. Each episode, I have a conversation with an interesting guest who is living in or from Washington Scott. These are casual conversations with real and interesting people. I think you’re gonna like the show. So let’s jump right in with today’s guest. Well, I’m sitting here today with Tom Llewellyn. Tom is a Tacoma author.

Scott Cowan [00:00:29]:

We’re gonna talk about his books and all that. But, Tom, before we start talking about your books, because that’s primary focus today. The other thing and I didn’t know this. What when I when I reached out to you about being on on on the podcast was because of your latest book. I saw the cover. Caught my eye. Sounded cool. I didn’t know that you are part of Beautiful Angle.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:00:51]:

That’s correct.

Scott Cowan [00:00:52]:

So in 30 seconds, why did you guys start that?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:00:57]:

Oh, it’s a yeah. You know, we, Beautiful angle, just real quickly, is a street art project in Tacoma, and it’s letterpress posters that we make about once a month, maybe 10 times a year and hang up around town. And, my partner in that, Lance Kagey, and I have been doing it for 21 years. And We’ve, even before that, we’d, done a lot of creative projects together. We’d done some art Together, and we’d been in a band for 7 years. And then and then he got really into letterpress. He’s a graphic designer, and I’m a writer. So, and we both said, you know, jeez, we should do posters together.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:01:38]:

We’re big fans of street art, so we kind of wanted to start our own. And as simple as that, that’s why. I mean, the the other reason is there’s no paying client involved. And when you take money out of the equation, you get to do whatever you want. So, that’s what we do. We just we just make posters about whatever we feel like making them about, And it’s gathered a really strong fan base, and it’s just been a joy to do.

Scott Cowan [00:02:05]:

Yeah. I know when I was living in Tacoma, The last time I was living in the I grew up there, but so that would predates your whole beautiful angle thing. But when I was living in the Cowan as an adult, you know, the there was always buzz on the street when a new when a new Poster dropped, so that’s that’s kinda cool. So I I look forward to getting both of you back on to talk about that.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:02:22]:

Would love to do that.

Scott Cowan [00:02:24]:

Perfect. Alright. So today, though, I’m gonna kinda set the table a little bit, and then you’re gonna take over. So you You grew up in the Redondo, Tacoma area, Federal Way, you know, area. You went to the University of Washington. So, I have to ask, Was it painful to watch? I I don’t know if you’re a sports fan. I I guess you are. You’re wearing a reindeer’s cap, but, I mean, was it painful to watch? I mean or is it too soon to to It’s

 Tom Llewellyn [00:02:52]:

so painful, man. I’m telling you. It killed me. I mean, we had such a good season, and then the the game just Fell apart in the national championship, against Michigan, who’s been a long time, you know, decades long rival of mine, which I remember. I mean, I go back all the way to the, I think I was 12 years old or something when we beat them with Warren Moon as our quarterback in the Don James era. And then and then to lose that game and then to have our new exciting head coach, Kalyn DeBoer, just just, you know, abandon us, It’s like the next day, you know, for Alabama was just, oh, it’s just this 1, 2 punch that just killed so many Husky fans, myself included.

Scott Cowan [00:03:37]:

So I went to Central so I can root for the Huskies whenever I I can be a bandwagon. You know, I can jump on the cougar bandwagon. I can jump on the husky bandwagon. I got autographed husky. I got autographed Warren Moon football helmet behind me. I’ve got Woah. I’ve got Some cougar helmets behind me. So I can you know, I I I’m a fair weather fan.

Scott Cowan [00:03:57]:

But does it hurt, Or is it some small consolation that he went to Alabama?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:04:04]:

Better Alabama than, other places. You know, it’s Alabama’s no one we ever consider. And, you know, the Crimson Tide, you know, a huge you know, Is is there a more renowned football program in the US? Probably not. Yeah. They’re certainly iconic.

Scott Cowan [00:04:23]:

I mean, you you know Yeah.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:04:25]:

You know, the part that just creeps me out of this and the kind of, you know, dissolution of the Pac 12 is just the college football. At least had the appearance of some sort of purity, and now, it just feels like it’s all about money. It’s just It’s triple a, football. Right? It’s just 1 step down from the NFL, and it seems like it’s all about the money. I mean, the amount of money Kalyn Deborah’s gonna get as a head Cowan coach is just I don’t know, man. It’s it’s it says a weird creepy thing about our national values see that, you know, future archaeologists are gonna look back and and, you know, think it’s bizarre how much we pay these, guys who play games. But I still I still watch, and I’m a I’m a huge baseball fan and, you know, same issues there, but I but I love following baseball. So

Scott Cowan [00:05:16]:

Cool. Well, we could we could go down the the whole I’ve got over off my left, I’ve got Original box seats from Cheney Stadium,

 Tom Llewellyn [00:05:27]:

that we brought

Scott Cowan [00:05:28]:

up, that came from SEALs Stadium in San Francisco when when Ben Cheney built Built the ballpark in 60. I’ve got Tacoma Giants’ jerseys. I’ve got Tacoma Giants hats. I have autographed team balls from the sixties.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:05:40]:

Wow.

Scott Cowan [00:05:41]:

My first baseball memory is my grandfather yelling at me to pay attention. I was gonna get hit in the head with a foul ball at a at a at a Twins game. It’s called the Twins game, and, you know, It’s yeah. Anyway so I we could we could we could not even talk about your books. We could just talk Scott the sports, and we kinda

 Tom Llewellyn [00:05:55]:

have to have

Scott Cowan [00:05:55]:

a good time.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:05:56]:

Scott, I’d

Scott Cowan [00:05:56]:

be happy

 Tom Llewellyn [00:05:57]:

to do that.

Scott Cowan [00:05:57]:

Yeah. That’d be kind of we’ll We’ll do that again. But Alright. So last you know, the last piece here about the the UW, so you went and you were in creative writing.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:06:06]:

Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:06:07]:

And you’re a fiction author, but you have a day job. So what did the creative writing program prepare you for?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:06:18]:

Yeah. I had so many friends who are, like, so you’re gonna be, you know, you’re gonna be working at Starbucks, or you’re gonna be Saying, you know, would you like fries with that after I graduated with my English degree? And I definitely took me a few years to sort of earn my way, I’ve made my living as a writer my entire adult life in one form or another. You know, my I pay the bills doing marketing, writing. I work, I oversee, brand and thought leadership for an investment company in the Seattle area. And, the skill set’s the same. You’re still telling stories. You know, if you’re telling a story about, you know, Your exposure to, you know, small cap equities or you’re telling a story about a girl in a, You know, who moves into a, guild hall of metal workers, the same principles apply. You’re still trying to capture Sure them in the first you know, you’re just trying to set up a great story, and you’re trying to pay it off.

Scott Cowan [00:07:16]:

Gotcha.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:07:16]:

So I love I love working in the skill set. I love just kinda soaking in that.

Scott Cowan [00:07:22]:

That that’s awesome that you’ve been able to, you know, follow your passion that way. You went so Wenatchee again, you kinda grew up the federal area. You went up to Seattle for college. Why’d you move to Tacoma? I mean, most of us I mean, I grew up in Tacoma. I couldn’t wait. I could not wait to leave. I moved back because my son came to live with me. Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:07:44]:

Lived at that time, I lived up in the Stadium District. I had a great time in Tacoma as an adult. I did not enjoy living in Tacoma in the sixties seventies. I’m a little older than you, so you, you know, you get that. But you chose to move you went to school in Seattle. What made you come back? Because you’ve been in Tacoma, what, over about 25 years or so. Right?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:08:02]:

Yeah. Close to 30.

Scott Cowan [00:08:04]:

Okay. Close to 30.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:08:05]:

Actually, it’s slightly over 30.

Scott Cowan [00:08:08]:

Okay.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:08:08]:

On so if I’m completely honest, the reason I moved to Tacoma was cheap housing. We were my wife and I were looking for a place to live, and we’re, like, anywhere but Tacoma. And our realtor was, like, You are broke. You don’t have enough money to live anywhere else. You should just go look at a house in Tacoma. And at the time, housing in Tacoma, was so Portable. It is definitely not anymore. Well But, well, compared to national average, it’s it’s Significantly higher, and it’s I mean, you you know, starter house in the Cowan is about $500 now, which is just kind of unbelievable.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:08:46]:

Right? And, but it as soon as we moved in, it just clicked with with us. You know, I kind of, have always had a bit of a chip on my shoulder kind of guy. I like I I’m I just have sort of a gritty working you know, I come from kind of a working class family, and it was such a good fit for me. It’s Really, I’m an artsy guy too, so the arts community here is so easy to get involved with. Mhmm. The thing that I always say is the big gift of Come is that it needs you. It needs people to love it. And I think if people are really honest of What they want in life is it’s to be needed.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:09:26]:

I think that’s that that purpose thing is what really feeds most of us. And to have a city that needs you, I think it’s it really is. It’s a gift.

Scott Cowan [00:09:35]:

Okay. We’re gonna weave Tacoma in and out because your books also Our set they they take place in the comic.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:09:43]:

Yeah. For that same reason. But, yeah, we can talk about that as you see fit.

Scott Cowan [00:09:46]:

So so I was exposed to you because I don’t know how I saw it on Facebook. I don’t know are I don’t know if your publisher’s running ads. I don’t know if you were running an ad. We we are not connected on Facebook. And I see this this cover for for the 5 impossible tasks of Eden Smith, and it caught my eye. I was like, that’s a cool cover. That’s cool. Hey.

Scott Cowan [00:10:04]:

This guy’s in Tacoma. What? I had no idea about that this was I believe it’s your 5th book. Correct? Correct. Okay. So And your books are taking you’re you’re setting them in Tacoma. That’s I I’m intrigued by that. We’re out talking about Washington Scott, but Tacoma gets a lot of our attention too. Can you walk me through? I have this romanticized version of authors that they, you know, they sit in a coffee shop or they they sit in a a dark not dark room, but a quiet Quiet space, and they they they tap away on their keyboard or maybe you’re writing out longhand.

Scott Cowan [00:10:45]:

But what’s your What’s the technical process that you work through when you’re after you’ve already and we’re gonna come back to I wanna talk about how you get your ideas, but I wanna talk about How do you put, quote unquote, words on paper?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:10:59]:

Yeah. My words are always on screen. I don’t I barely know how to write longhand. Honestly, if I have to write more than 10 words, I will type it and print it out. I it I just It it my fingers don’t connect to my brain unless they’re on a keyboard. If we ever move into a post keyboard world, that that would terrify me. I

Scott Cowan [00:11:21]:

my problem is I can write, but I can’t read what I write. I mean, it’s just it’s so I Cowan read, but it’s my writing is so atrocious that I have to type. So you Yeah. You you type everything.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:11:31]:

I type everything and and,

Scott Cowan [00:11:35]:

Do you work from a a studio? Do you work Wherever you are, what’s your work for?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:11:40]:

Wherever I am. Absolutely. It’s wherever I am. I have a home office that I didn’t have until COVID Started and then I took over a room because I was working from home full time there for a couple years. So I write in here, but, most of my writing happens wherever I can jam it in. I’m more productive when I’m busy. I don’t know why. If I like, if I’m on vacation, I hardly write anything.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:12:05]:

I write better if I’m trying to cram it around the edges. So, honestly, my most productive writing Space over the last 15 years has been on the five ninety, which is the sound transit express bus between Tacoma and Seattle. And, it’s a great place to write for me. It’s it’s total downtime and it has, enough activity on it. I I like coffee shops too. I have a, a friend who’s a who’s a poet and he likes to write at coffee shops. His name is, Timothy McNeely. And, he says that it has just Enough activity for my brain to push against.

Scott Cowan [00:12:46]:

Oh.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:12:47]:

And I love that I love that kind of description. It’s it’s just right for me. So if I’m on a bus or in a coffee shop, there’s There’s just enough kind of buzz and to keep me, from to keep my mind from straying. And, but I’ll write, you know, sitting on the Cowan. I’ll I can edit, you know, just kinda whenever If I’m writing a a rough draft or something that really needs a lot of attention, I need a kind of a decent chunk of time, at least, you know, an an hour of Kind of uninterrupted time, and the bus is about an hour each way, so it works really well for me. I I’ve kind of come to love the, the The the five ninety. I feel like I should do an ad for Sound Transit and say, you know, yeah, here’s the 4 books I’ve written while commuting.

Scott Cowan [00:13:35]:

So you’ve written 4 of your books for Cowan literally while commuting?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:13:39]:

I don’t know if it’s that many exactly, but it’s been a lot. Yeah. It’s been it’s been there.

Scott Cowan [00:13:42]:

So you said the Is it safe to say the bulk of your work has been done on sound transit?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:13:49]:

I think that’s probably safe to say.

Scott Cowan [00:13:52]:

Yeah. That’s kinda cool.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:13:53]:

I’m a put

Scott Cowan [00:13:54]:

you on the spot. This is a question I normally ask later in the conversation, but we’re gonna we’re gonna get this one going first. So you mentioned coffee shops because I kinda led you into it because that’s kinda my thing. I need to know, in your opinion, where’s a great coffee shop in Tacoma?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:14:09]:

Blue Beard is my go to coffee shop. I it’s on the corner of 6th Avenue and State Street.

Scott Cowan [00:14:16]:

Yep. Right next to Jason Lee Middle School.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:14:18]:

Yeah. Which is now called Hilltop Heritage. But, yeah, they changed The name, you know, part of this changing the name, Jason Lee, was apparently not a good guy.

Scott Cowan [00:14:27]:

Yeah. That would make sense. Okay.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:14:29]:

Yep. So So anyway but yeah. Yeah. Bluebeard, they they, you know, they they roast their own coffee right there. It’s just got a really good vibe. It’s a big funky space. You can, you know, you can get a seat somewhere and

Scott Cowan [00:14:43]:

So what’s your go to coffee drink?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:14:46]:

It’s either just A shot of espresso and a and a glass of soda water or just black black drip coffee.

Scott Cowan [00:14:53]:

So simple, a purist, if you will.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:14:55]:

Yeah. The older I get, the more I like. Espresso is sort of the sipping whiskey of coffee. You know, it’s strong and

Scott Cowan [00:15:02]:

Mhmm.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:15:02]:

So I like that.

Scott Cowan [00:15:04]:

Awesome. Alright. The the the 5 impossible tasks of Edin Smith takes place in Tacoma. Where did you get the inspiration for the book?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:15:18]:

I think I got it from a lot of places, but, the the original idea was, I can’t remember who I was in a conversation with, but it was this idea of if you think about. So the book is set in what is, for all intents and purposes, an old folks home for metal workers. And I was having a conversation with someone about, you know, these these great children’s books, or young adult books of or even adult books of, like, you know, you think of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory or Harry the Harry Potter series or even Lord of the Rings or Narnia that these books that have this world that’s so desirable that you almost Love the world more than you love the individual stories, and you wanna return to the chocolate factory or Middle Earth or Hogwarts. And and it was just this idea of sort of a challenge for my own brain of, like, what if you what if you set the book in a place where kids really don’t have any desire to go, like, An old folks’ home or a nursing home. K. And, so that was this idea. And, and then, Of course, it morphed from that. It’s like, okay.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:16:29]:

How do you take this old folks home and turn it into and, you know, still into a magical place where and so it ends up that the reader does Hopefully, want to go there because it’s full of, you know, this mastery of the metal craft that verges on the medical the magical Nicole and these, elderly characters that end up being you know, instead of being boring, really colorful, and The building itself is this very much a world within itself. That was the original inspiration, and I struggled with that For quite a while and frankly, really struggled to to get it moving, and then realized that if this was If this book was full of, old people, I could fill it with my own old people. And so I changed all the characters from these sort of generic, people right out of my imagination into actually giving them the names and Personalities of my own, late relatives, relatives of mine who I loved who are no longer with us. So my Great aunties and uncles and and aunts and uncles and realized that as as soon as I did that, it was this realization of, like, Whenever I’m working on this book, I kinda get to have this delightful family reunion. And I get to have it on my own terms. Right? I can put their I can put words into their mouths and actions into their mouth. So it’s the sort of idealized family reunion. And, boy, I just enjoyed I so much spending time with these folks.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:18:05]:

So that was, yeah, that was sort of The how it came about.

Scott Cowan [00:18:09]:

That’s very cool. So it’s a work of fiction. I get that, but, you know, Tacoma. I know Tacoma. If I had to make you say, where would this place physically have been? What neighborhood would you have put it in? I mean, where, Like

 Tom Llewellyn [00:18:27]:

Oh, I can tell you exactly where it is.

Scott Cowan [00:18:28]:

Okay.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:18:29]:

It’s on it’s on North 10th and North I Street, which is the old Rust Mansion. If you remember the Rust Mansion, and it’s it it’s it’s that that’s the address. And I just drove past the Rust mansion going, oh, look at this giant place with these these huge round porch that kind of circles the building and these big big columns. And so It definitely drifted from there. This building is much bigger than that, and it also has many many many, you know, underground stories to it, but, that’s the address.

Scott Cowan [00:19:02]:

So where I was thinking, the the building that I kind of assigned to it Was the document museum by Wright Park?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:19:10]:

Sure. Yeah. That would have been a good place to

Scott Cowan [00:19:12]:

do that. Why, but that’s kind of where my brain went. They’d Be at a place like that. Yeah. But the rest of it makes perfect sense. Alright. Yeah.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:19:20]:

No. That’s a good location. I love that museum. But I and I think it’s close

Scott Cowan [00:19:24]:

kind of What?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:19:27]:

I I believe I heard that it’s, that and and I’m trying to remember the name of it off the top of my head, and I can’t. But, Yeah. I believe it is closing.

Scott Cowan [00:19:36]:

I yeah. I knew they had more than 1 location. I think they had a location, like, in Tennessee or something like that, so maybe they’re consolidating. Interesting. I didn’t even know all my years of living there is, you know, the 1st 18 years of my life living there, I had no idea what that thing was. It was when I moved back, some of the Carpalace

 Tom Llewellyn [00:19:52]:

Manuscript Museum Carpalace Manuscript Museum. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:19:56]:

Yeah. What is that place? You know? I never Yeah.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:19:57]:

And I

Scott Cowan [00:19:58]:

went in there. It was it was a very Cool experience. It was it was it’s a to me, it’s an under underappreciated asset that Tacoma has. Alright. So The 5 impossible tasks. How did you go why 5 Scott why not why not 4? Why not 7? What what was it because you ran out of of of crazy things for her to do? Or I’m kidding. But, you know, what what was kind of the process there to lead you to these, And and are they related to memories of the family in some way?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:20:31]:

They’re they’re not, but the impossible tasks Come from the 12 labors of Hercules. In fact, if there each one is is, in my mind, at least Clearly associated with one of the labors of Hercules. There’s the 1st task in the book is this, Eden has to, Do the dishes, which sounds like an incredibly medial task, but in this guild hall, she has to do them all in a day, and there’s this room called dishes where there’s, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dirty dishes stacked up that she has to wash in a day, and she ends up doing it in a very creative way. So it’s sort of like the the, Yes. The stables in the, 12 tasks of Hercules, that Hercules ends washing in a sort of creative way. And, she has another task where she’s battling these deadly birds, And that task is also right out of the 12 labors of Hercules, and they sort of go on that way. And the reason there’s 5, I think it’s just because That seemed about like the right amount to fit into a book, that’s, you know, about the right size. There’s nothing more More compelling or creative than that.

Scott Cowan [00:21:48]:

If if you were to be tasked with 1 of those 5 tasks, what would you which one would you wanna do?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:21:56]:

That’s a good question. I don’t know if I’m as as creative or smart as, the character, Eaton, is in the book. But, yeah, the the dishes one seems like the least deadly, the one that’s least likely to kill me. The tasks in the book have, the the book starts off With a sort of, a genealogy of, Eden’s ancestors, and and it basically tells the story of how they’ve all died Trying to complete these tasks, so I think if I was really smart, I’d try to avoid them altogether.

Scott Cowan [00:22:28]:

Well, I understand, but I’m gonna put On the spot, which which one to you sounds the most like you? Like like, okay. I’m gonna take the risk. What am I gonna do?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:22:39]:

Yeah. I think I’d probably try to figure out the dishes, just because I think it’d be the one less less least likely to kill me.

Scott Cowan [00:22:48]:

Right.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:22:48]:

Okay. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:22:50]:

Will there be a sequel? Is this is she gonna have more adventures?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:22:55]:

I hope so. That’s actually, not up to me. That’s up to the publisher if they’re if they’re willing to do this, and it’s and it’s frankly determined by how well this first book Sells. And if you ask me how well the 1st book is selling, I I have no idea. It’s, publishing, from an author’s point of view is very much a black hole. Apparently, the the selling process of wholesaling books and potentially buying them back from retailers means that Getting numbers is something that happens, you know, over, like, half of a year as opposed to, You know, we’re used to having data at our fingertips anytime we want, but apparently the publishing and book selling process is too complex to make that happen. So I won’t know how the book is selling for at least 6 months and, but I have mapped out sort of a a, you know, in my mind, I have an idea of of Definitely turning this into a c a series. I set up a number of things in this book that that would definitely feed into a series, so I have a lot of ideas in that sense.

Scott Cowan [00:24:00]:

Working with a publisher, do you, as the author, have any input as to where you’re gonna ask for the book to be placed. Like, for example, you just We were supposed to record this last week. We had some illness here in the house. But on Wednesday of last week, you you did a a book A book thing at King’s King’s Books there in Tacoma. Do you do you get to have any input and say, I’d like to have books you know, if King’s is willing to carry it because I’m a local guy, can Can you can you help guide the placement? Are you are they this are they the marketing experts?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:24:40]:

I think they’re the marketing experts, but, yeah, absolutely. I mean, they’re happy to send books wherever, I can help sell them. So and I’m sure I sell more books in Tacoma probably primarily because of, as you mentioned, of my association with Beautiful Angle, which has a Very strong fan base, which I’m not above exploiting or I I like to use the word leveraging, because Guess it sounds better, but, you know, totally trying to exploit that for however I can. So I tend to to do really well in Tacoma just because Again, because Tacoma is such a great supportive community and they love to support their own folks. Outside of Tacoma, the publisher is is much more likely to send me places, on my last book. I did a mini Kind of book tour just right around the kind of I five corridor, you know, Seattle to Everett sort of thing. And so I have a I know I have a book Signing in, Redmond coming up in a couple months. I’m doing my 1st Cowan, Norwest con, which is A kind of fantasy and sci fi book convention, coming up, this this Q1 of the year as well.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:25:54]:

And, you know, more and more these days, the promotion of books happens in a virtual space on things like this Podcast or, via blogs and, you know, via influencers on social and those sorts of things.

Scott Cowan [00:26:08]:

I’m gonna Drop a name. I I I see that they do so on Explore Washington State, we have an events calendar across the entire state. So we we try to, promote events. So, you know, if you’re into comedy, you’re looking for something to do, you can go to our website, look for it across the entire state. It’s a it’s Pretty darn ambitious to try to

 Tom Llewellyn [00:26:27]:

think we can do

Scott Cowan [00:26:28]:

that. But have you ever heard of village books and paper in Bellingham?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:26:35]:

I haven’t off the top of my head, but I might have been there. I do love I do love I have been there. This is the one that’s

Scott Cowan [00:26:44]:

is

 Tom Llewellyn [00:26:44]:

this the one that’s in the Fairhaven, neighborhood?

Scott Cowan [00:26:47]:

They have 2. Yeah. They have 2 2 locations. Correct.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:26:49]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:26:50]:

They have A lot, and I mean a Scott, of author conversations. They’ve they’re bringing authors in multiple times a week. So they’ve had an audience that’s kinda prime to expect an author to show up. Bellingham’s not too far to drive.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:27:09]:

I would totally drive to Bellingham. What a great town.

Scott Cowan [00:27:12]:

Yeah. No. Bellingham’s awesome. So you maybe add that to your your list of of possible places to to go and Talk and and I’ve seen, I’ve seen events there with with children’s books authors, so it’s I I’m recommending it because I’ve never been there, but I’m recommending it because of the number of author events that they have. There’s that seems to be, like, a focus of theirs. Nice. So they must have a good mechanism in place to, promote the events.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:27:44]:

Well, I I’m a huge fan of the independent bookstores and, you know, surprisingly, they just kinda Seem to keep rolling, and I I love that that I I think it’s I don’t know if it’s truer in the Pacific Northwest. I know we are the most, reading ist, part of the country. Right. So, I love that. And, you know, these bookstores, I like King’s Books Tacoma just is is a great place. We have a new high voltage books on Sixth Avenue that is you know, seems to be doing really well. And, like, seeing a new bookstore open is just like, oh, how cool was that?

Scott Cowan [00:28:26]:

No. It’s very, very it’s almost as exciting as a new vinyl record store.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:28:29]:

Yeah. I’m with you.

Scott Cowan [00:28:31]:

I’m gonna well, I think I warned you that the my my show’s always bouncing around a lot, so we’re gonna look. I’m not even gonna push the clutch, and I’m just gonna shift gears. I was listening to an interview you did earlier about your childhood, and you had a very conservative mother, but she would let you read Whatever you wanted to read. So is it at a young age, you were reading Stephen King and all this. You you mentioned Mad Magazine, which, you know, we’re getting along just great if you were reading Mad Magazine. And I didn’t listen to all the episodes, so maybe you’ve already discussed this. But something that was brought up was liner notes, album liner notes, that you were reading those. As a kid, what were you listening to?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:29:09]:

I I mean, I was an I I was the youngest of 5, so I had Three older brothers who were quite into music. My brother, Dan, who now lives back on the East Coast, but he was a big influence on My Musical which in his verged to or leaned towards, classic rock. We now call it classic rock. Back then, you just called it rock. And, so I still listen to the same stuff too. I just was listening to Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd. Probably listened to that album 4 times this week. I’m a huge Led Zeppelin fan.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:29:45]:

Still consider Consider them the greatest rock band ever. I listen to them all the time. In fact, they have a great new biography out just called Led Zeppelin. It’s probably You’re are too old now, but, some shocking stuff. But I loved yeah. And I loved To read all those, you know, those liner notes. So again, any anything in that era, cream and, You know, blind faith and traffic and all those sort of bands. And one of the things you love about them is, like, especially reading the liner notes like you would read Led Zeppelin I mean, the the liner notes from Pink Floyd, then I’d go over to my cousin’s house, and, you know, my cousin was listening to an Cowan Parsons project thing.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:30:30]:

And I was like, Alan Parsons. I know. I’ve heard that name somewhere. Oh, he was the engineer on Dark Side of the Moon because I I was such a nerd about that And I had I think I bought my 1st turntable when I was 12 years old with my paper route and lawn mowing money. And just I spent so much time sitting in my bedroom, you know, turning records on the on the turntable And just, yeah, reading everything, you know, the front and back of the cover and whatever was on the on the record sleeve inside. And I still do it. I mean, I still do it. I just recently got a new turntable and, still I still buy records.

Scott Cowan [00:31:13]:

K. Did you you know, you’re you’re of a certain age.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:31:18]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:31:18]:

Do you so I can remember when I got my 1st CD player. I was in college. Mhmm. I can Remember, I bought it in Yakima, went to Budget Records and Tapes in Yakima, bought 3 CDs that day. I can still remember exactly what 3 CDs they are. Can you remember the 1st CDs you bought?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:31:38]:

I can’t remember the 1st CDs I bought. I can remember the 1st vinyl I bought, which was, Boston’s 1st album, which I don’t really think has aged all that well. But, and I remember the 1st cassette tape I bought was, Heavy Weather by Weather Report, which is still a great album. I just bought that on vinyl again recently. It’s so it’s still so good. Jocko Pastorius on base on that, just tearing it up. And, I I don’t remember the 1st CDs, but I do I I was really resistant to CDs

Scott Cowan [00:32:13]:

Mhmm.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:32:13]:

Because I all my friends had moved on to CD players, and I was clinging to vinyl and going, no, vinyl’s better. And then I how frustrated I was to hear Somebody plays CDs, and I was hearing things that I’d never heard on vinyl because you get more you get more of the information, but, you know, less of the warmth. Like, I think it’s Scott of the idea.

Scott Cowan [00:32:33]:

Yeah. It’s it’s very they’re very clinical, which is why I think vinyl’s we’re going back to vinyl. So I will tell you the first 3 CDs I bought because this kind of It will give you a snapshot into into my my brain.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:32:45]:

Yeah. Let’s hear it.

Scott Cowan [00:32:47]:

Donald Fagan’s the nightfly.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:32:49]:

It’s great. It’s great. I love Steely Dan. I’m a huge Steely Dan fan.

Scott Cowan [00:32:53]:

One of my favorite. I mean yeah. Right there. Seen him multiple times. Scott lot Really a lot of fun. Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon Mhmm. And Prince’s Purple Ring.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:33:06]:

I’m a huge Prince fan.

Scott Cowan [00:33:08]:

I know, but those are the 3 those are the 3 CDs I bring home with me to to print in the inaugural CD player.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:33:14]:

That’s a good mix. 1999, I think, is a top 10 album of all time for me, so by by Prince. Okay. Alright. I

Scott Cowan [00:33:23]:

Yeah. Yeah. I just yeah. That that was high school for me. I still listen to all 3 of those. I think the night flight for me probably edges out dark side of the moon.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:33:38]:

Okay. But That’s cool.

Scott Cowan [00:33:40]:

That that’s like saying, you know, I tacos or pizza. I mean, you can’t go wrong with either.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:33:45]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:33:46]:

You know? So anyway okay. So Tacoma, Tacoma’s music scene. Who were you a fan of? Who are you a fan of in the Tacoma music scene?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:33:57]:

Well, to come, I think if you think of Tacoma correctly, Tacoma is really designed as as an incubator city. Right? Mhmm. And and I think and I think we We’re comfortable with that idea. So, you know, I’m a huge fan of northwest music history and, in our beautiful angle project, we did a history of of of of Tacoma music poster. So I know some of this stuff. So, like, Nirvana first played. I’m a huge Nirvana fan. I love

Scott Cowan [00:34:29]:

k.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:34:29]:

I mean, just what a great band in I mean, one of the greatest rock As ever and and, you know, I’m not sure there’s a greater northwest band. And they first played under the name Nirvana in Tacoma. Chris Novacellack had a house in Tacoma when Dave Grohl joined the band. They first met in his backyard at a barbecue. Their main place to play was called I can go on on this for a while, Scott.

Scott Cowan [00:34:54]:

That’s cool. It’s called

 Tom Llewellyn [00:34:54]:

world, community world or, Community World Theater, which is now,

Scott Cowan [00:34:59]:

off of 56th Street.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:35:01]:

Yeah. Now it’s a church. But, Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:35:04]:

That My In

 Tom Llewellyn [00:35:05]:

fact in fact, when they

Scott Cowan [00:35:06]:

great my grandfather’s sister owned that place as a movie theater in the thirties and forties.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:35:13]:

Wow. Is that right?

Scott Cowan [00:35:15]:

Yeah. Right.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:35:16]:

Way back

Scott Cowan [00:35:16]:

in the day, my my my

 Tom Llewellyn [00:35:18]:

fellow was aunt. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So my grandparents The craziest practice.

Scott Cowan [00:35:25]:

House right on 56th Street. You could see that theater from my grandparents’ front yard.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:35:30]:

That’s so weird. Yeah. When the when Nirvana first played there under the name Nirvana, the person taking tickets at the door was Niko Case. Really? Which is just a just Just a crazy sort of interconnection of, you know, events. My favorite weird fact that most people don’t know is that, Loretta Lynn’s first, like, broadcast, performance was from Tacoma. Buck Owens Buck Owens and the Buckaroo and the Bakersfield Sound and Hee Haw and all that sort of stuff was it was, living in Tacoma at the time. And, he was he did a, radio program on a local radio Station, and he did a talent show at a at a restaurant on Scott Tacoma Way called Steve’s Gay Nineties.

Scott Cowan [00:36:17]:

Oh, yeah.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:36:18]:

And, And one of his, sort of discoveries was this, young woman who had moved up here with her husband. I think she was Actually living in Bellingham at the time or somewhere up north, but she was coming down here to be on Buck Owens’ various programs and shows, and her name was Loretta Lynn. You know, it’s like it’s a pretty good claim to fame.

Scott Cowan [00:36:42]:

So and you thought we were only gonna talk about your

 Tom Llewellyn [00:36:44]:

I am. I I I could talk about this stuff. This stuff’s fascinating to me.

Scott Cowan [00:36:51]:

Are you Currently in any process of of another book that you’re working on?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:36:58]:

Oh, yeah. All the time.

Scott Cowan [00:36:59]:

Okay. How many how many how many I’ll call them projects. How many projects do you work on simultaneously? Just 1, or are you Are you scribbling notes down or typing notes because you don’t write? But, you you jotting notes on the computer down from multiple projects, or How’s your brain work?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:37:15]:

Yeah. Messily. I’m constantly jotting notes down. I have big file folders full of just New things called book ideas. I have I’m currently working on I I just sent a Completed notes on a manuscript on a book called Black String to My Agent, which actually is a book that came out, Was published in a earlier form only in, Germany and the Netherlands, but we’ve never sold it in the United States. Wow. So we’ve done some rewrites, and we’re trying she’s she’s supposed to come back maybe with some edits, and we’re gonna pitch that again. And it’s it’s a book that is sort of based on string theory and the the, myth of, Theseus who goes into the, you know, the maze, fights the Minotaur in Greek mythology.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:38:04]:

He, you know, he finds his way through the maze with a ball of String. And, Murph finds its way out of the maze by following a ball of string. So, I really like The story, I hope something happens with it, and then I’m working on another book that’s, actually set in my mind where Hilltop Heritage Middle School is. But In the book, the middle school was built on a, a cemetery where they were not allowed to remove any of the graves or the headstones. So there’s headstones and and and, you know, mausoleums popping up through all the the floorboards and on the soccer field and things like that. The working Title is the Edna j Krebs Memorial Cemetery and Middle School. So, those are the 2 that I’m actively working on, and then, I I have a bunch of, like, half finished things that I tend I tend to come back to things, like, I’ll get it A certain level, then my mind shifts onto something else, but then I usually come back around and try to finish something.

Scott Cowan [00:39:08]:

Each project’s different. I get that. But what’s the approximate Let let’s just use let’s use the the the 5 impossible tasks of Ethan Smith. How long did that take you from starting actually work on it, not just the idea, because the idea may have been sitting in in the shelf on your mind for months years. But when you started, like, Putting fingers to keyboard to the book being completed as far as your role, How long is that process for that book?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:39:43]:

I can get pretty specific on that one because I went back and looked at my, And, you know, my file folder on my on my Mac. And, the earliest, kind of serious beginning on it was, late 2017, early 2018. So if we just call it January of 2018, and I Finished edits on it in fall of 2023, so, almost 6 years.

Scott Cowan [00:40:12]:

It’s a long time.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:40:14]:

It’s a long time. And and probably 5 of those years is the editing process. I had a I had a good a good rough draft. I think we had a a contract on the book 3 years before publication. And then it was 3 additional years of editing and rewrites between then and the time it came out.

Scott Cowan [00:40:38]:

As as the creator whose words are being edited, is that easy for you To watch somebody else make a change, or do you do you are there times when you’re, like, fighting them going, no. No. No. No. No. That has to stay. You’re you’re changing the the message too much, or How’s that for you as a creative?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:40:57]:

Yeah. The way it works is they don’t actually they rarely change anything on their own, but they’ll say, you know, I think you you should change this, and they let me actually do it. But but they get very strongly opinionated on you need to Change this sort of thing. I used to be resistant to it. I’m lucky enough to my 2 primary editors is my agent, the esteemed Abigail Simoon from, Red Fox literary who’s been my agent for forever, and, and then Kelly Lohman at Holiday House, who is the publisher of this Cowan, and they’re both just just seasoned, just brilliant editors. And they’re just they’re annoyingly right. You know? You’re just like and and the thing that’s it’s it’s People who are young authors or haven’t been through this before find it incredibly shocking. I’m like, they’ll make these requests of like, I think you should I don’t think this chapter works.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:41:55]:

I think you should get rid of this chapter. And and You’re thinking, if I get rid of this chapter, it’s gonna change these 4 chapters before and 20 chapters after it. And they’re like, yeah, yeah, I know. Take 6 months and work on that. And you’re like, 6 months? I wanna be done with this thing, you know? And but they’re right. They’re just consistently right. They have a this is what they do for a living, and they just have a really good ear for what works and what doesn’t. And, I honestly my I I used to load the editing process, and now I’ve I’ve totally turned that corner, and I love it.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:42:35]:

And I I mean, that’s what writing is. It’s real writing is editing. It’s that polish and And the ability the thing I like about it is, when you write the 1st draft, it happens, for me at least, it happened in a very linear process. Right? You Kinda go from start to finish. And then when you’re editing, you sort of become like a god, and you can step out of linear time and space and move wherever you want. The characters are still stuck in their linear story, but you’re kind of dipping in and out. And, So it changes the way you read too. So if I read another book, like, somebody will read Harry Potter or something and go, oh, I can’t believe this thing with Voldemort happens here in book 3, but they set it up in book 1.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:43:23]:

And you’re like, that was just editing. That’s all fake. It’s all just, you know, it’s like foreshadowing. If you think an author is great at foreshadowing, that it’s it’s it’s like a it’s like a kind of a cheap magic Trick. You know, it seems it seems brilliant and and seamless to the to the reader. But for For the writer, it was this you know, it took him a year to go through and figure it out. But, you know, it’s it’s so easy to go back and add something on page 3 that It looks like it’s now, you know, magically paid off on page 350. But, you know, you open up the Word document and Stick it in there.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:44:01]:

It’s just there’s nothing to do

Scott Cowan [00:44:02]:

with it. That’s interesting. So let me ask you this. Does does working with the editors on your fiction work, has that, In your opinion, paid positive dividends in in your professional writing? Are you more Cowan to the editing now for on on the on the corporate side if you want?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:44:23]:

I I think I would honestly say that it’s happened the other way around that I was Open to the editing process because I was already before I published my first book, I was probably 15 years into Business writing.

Scott Cowan [00:44:37]:

Okay.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:44:37]:

And if if you’ve ever done any sort of, like, I was an ad copywriter. I was a I was a trade journalist for a while and, you know, a marketing writer. And you’re just used to having brutal clients, whether it’s somebody in your own company or somebody at another company just saying, oh, I don’t like this. This isn’t working at all. You know, and and you never

Scott Cowan [00:44:57]:

And maybe not knowing why. Not necessarily being correct either. Yeah.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:45:01]:

But you just realize, oh, they’re the ones Signing my paycheck, they get to say whatever they want. And you developed this really thick skin. So I think it actually was a huge It was a huge bonus for me as a as an author, and I think my my editors and agents were delighted to say, oh, this is somebody who doesn’t get their feelings hurt when I tell them to change something, so I was so used to it by then.

Scott Cowan [00:45:25]:

Okay. Well, to respect your time, we could go on and on because we could we could be going back to talk music or sports or Tacoma in general. So I got I got a couple of things I wanna make sure we touch on. You you bio talks about you grew up in a house with Frozen toilets.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:45:49]:

I did indeed.

Scott Cowan [00:45:50]:

That’s a pretty interesting visual. Now you also state that you grew up in a waterfront home.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:45:58]:

Right? Right.

Scott Cowan [00:45:59]:

Okay. Back. And you make and let’s let’s let’s let’s let’s set the stage here. Back in the day, waterfront in Puget Sound wasn’t all that desirable. It wasn’t like we might think about it today, like, oh, waterfront.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:46:13]:

Hard to imagine, isn’t it?

Scott Cowan [00:46:14]:

I know. It’s very hard, but You grew up in that, but I I actually there’s there’s a connection here that I need you to explain to me. Is that what went wrong So that you are actually doing, like, polar plunges into Puget Sound, I saw a picture of you on Facebook with a friend of yours, And all I could think of is, what’s wrong with this guy? I’m I’m teasing. But

 Tom Llewellyn [00:46:40]:

Yeah. I go

Scott Cowan [00:46:40]:

in. What’s wrong with you?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:46:41]:

I I go in, the sound early in the morning too. It’s, it’s usually right around sunrise or even before or right after depending on the time of the year. About 3 days a week with my friend, Todd Gainey. And, we both grew up on the water way back in the day. We grew up Both of us grew up in the seventies and and early eighties, I guess. And, it just I just think that salt water gets in your blood. And my Favorite thing about going in 3 days a week is just that I’m in the water. And I I grew up as a kid, you know, Swimming only in the summertime, but swimming in this cold water and it just never bothered me.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:47:23]:

And there’s all sorts of sort of pseudo Science saying all these kind of health benefits of this this activity. I don’t really buy into any of that stuff. I just do it because I like it. People say, oh, it’s supposed to be good for your it’s supposed to increase your metabolism or help with your mitochondrial health or some BS like that. And, I’m like, yeah. Maybe. I don’t know. I I like doing it.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:47:45]:

I have a I have

Scott Cowan [00:47:46]:

a friend that lives in Tacoma who did who’s has a cold plunge tank at house now, and he’s he’s going in over, like, near Owens Beach. Mhmm. And and I haven’t talked to him This early this year to, like, ask him what what the heck is wrong with him. But where where do you guys go? Where do you where do you do your your

 Tom Llewellyn [00:48:06]:

We go I mean, it’s it’s the Same stretch of water that owned beaches on. It’s it but we’re down, in closer to the old town neighborhood, which, we go in at Jack Hyde Park. Okay. Which if you’re into comments, if you if you’re facing the water, it’s to the it’s between the Chinese reconciliation park and the Northern Fish company is just a little stretch of nice speech there. So and there’s a lot of a lot of people who are who go in right there.

Scott Cowan [00:48:33]:

And how long are you staying in?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:48:35]:

10 to 15 minutes usually. We went in Really? Yeah. We went in on, January, I guess what was it? January 8th or something like that, which was like the coldest day in the last 30 years or whatever, and it was about 16 degrees out, and we were only in about 4 minutes. And it was honestly, the water was so cold that day. You didn’t even Feel it as a temperature. You just felt it as it like, it literally was like stepping into pain. It was so cold. It was just unbelievable how cold it So that one I didn’t I didn’t

Scott Cowan [00:49:12]:

enjoy. Consistent.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:49:13]:

Yeah. That’s that was really the only reason for it.

Scott Cowan [00:49:17]:

Alright. I’m gonna get to Tacoma around lunchtime. Where’s a place in Tacoma I should grab lunch these days?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:49:28]:

I think you should just you should go to the Red Hot on 6th Ave and, you should grab a get a hotdog there. And they have a great beer selection if you’re a beer drinker. They have the best tap list in Tacoma. You can see some of our beautiful angle posters there. It’s the only place my wife and I go to often enough where they actually say our names when we go in, so it’s a place that likes its regulars. So that would be my recommendation.

Scott Cowan [00:49:56]:

That that’s a solid. That’s solid. When you’re not working and when you’re not writing and when you’re not cold plunging, what do you like to do? What do you and the family what do you guys do? What’s fun for you?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:50:11]:

My family and I I mean, my my wife and I like to go to movies. We love to eat out in Tacoma. We hang we have Koma just has a great community, so we like to hang out with friends. I I’m a musician too. I love To play guitar with friends, and I’m probably driving my wife crazy, most evenings just sitting in our dining room playing my guitar, and she’s like, I love that you’re playing, honey, but could you play something else? You’re starting to drive me nuts because I’ll just play the same role.

Scott Cowan [00:50:43]:

The originals, or you are you doing covers.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:50:46]:

I’m just kinda mostly just noodling. But, yeah, I like to learn songs, and the the Internet makes that so much easier. I love the YouTube guitar lessons on, you know, how to, you know, how to play Landslide by Fleetwood Mac. And you’re like, oh, I’ve heard this song, you know, 10,000 times, and you’re like, yes. That’s actually really easy to play. You know, these sort of weird realizations.

Scott Cowan [00:51:10]:

Such a song that’s so being covered by everybody these days. It’s kinda funny.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:51:13]:

It’s kinda

Scott Cowan [00:51:15]:

bubbled back. If you’re gonna go out and see live music in Tacoma, where’s where’s the venue you’re liking these days?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:51:22]:

Well, I’m an old guy, so, I don’t like to stay up late. I mean, I love to see live shows and but if you go to, like, a great Seattle club or something and, You know, it says the door is open at 8:30. That means that the headliner that you’re there to see doesn’t come on till 10:30 or 11. Right. I just can’t do it. So we’ve been blessed with, McMenamins, in Tacoma at the old Oaks Lodge. It is a beautiful site, and they have a a a space there called the Spanish Ballroom, And the shows usually start promptly at 8 PM. Isn’t that nice? It’s so nice, man.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:51:59]:

Oh my gosh. It’s just the greatest. And you look around, and that’s a bunch of old hairs, you know, and folks that were, you know, folks my age. And I don’t mind that.

Scott Cowan [00:52:08]:

I get it.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:52:08]:

I like it.

Scott Cowan [00:52:09]:

Yeah. I, the last show my wife and I love to go see live music, and the last show we saw was over at Slim’s Best chance in Seattle. Okay. And it was I was up past my bedtime, and we you know, because we we when we come over to the west side to see live music, we’re we’re staying at a hotel. You know, we’re not we’re not going over. I used to go I I used to drive a lot. I could go, oh, just go home. You know? No.

Scott Cowan [00:52:37]:

We don’t do that. But, Slims, it was it was a lot of fun, but it was I was Feeling old. Feeling Yeah, man. That’s too hard.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:52:47]:

Those are great. My favorite band that I’ve seen in the last couple years live, and, frankly, I I don’t know if they work, not live. It’s called Polyrhythmics, And they’re like a funk jazz band. Yeah. And it’s only only instrumental, which is not something I would necessarily go out of my way. But, they have another show coming up in March at the Spanish Ballroom in Tacoma. And, they just fill the place, Standing room only. And as soon as the 1st song starts, the whole crowd is just bouncing up and down.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:53:19]:

It’s just the most you cannot, sit still when you’re listening to this music. It’s so good.

Scott Cowan [00:53:26]:

I yeah. And the Spanish ballroom’s wonderful space. Alright. So I got a question. I got 1 last interview question. This is the most important question I ask all my guests. You ready?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:53:39]:

I’m ready. Let’s hear it.

Scott Cowan [00:53:41]:

You have to answer it. Cake or pie, and why?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:53:50]:

I’m so much a pie guy and not a cake guy. I don’t really even like cake very much. I don’t understand the appeal to. I I’m always confused when they have, like, oh, we’re it’s somebody’s birthday. Let’s buy him a cake. Why cake? Whoever decided that cake was the right thing? Pie is so much better. It’s like if you know, cake is like All the bready part and this little bit of filling, and pie is all the filling part with a little bit of bread. And I I I’m a huge I’m a huge fruit pie guy, like blackberry, cherry, apple pie.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:54:23]:

My wife’s also happens to be a really good pie maker. And, you know, she makes great crust, and she she loves she’s also a a obsessive blackberry picker. She makes her own blackberry jelly. And, so I always get at least, You know, 3 or 4 amazing blackberry pies here.

Scott Cowan [00:54:41]:

Alright. There’s What’s what’s interesting, I I stole this question from another It’s

 Tom Llewellyn [00:54:46]:

good. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:54:47]:

It’s it it’s cool. And some people get really like like, I’ve asked them to pick which is their favorite child or which arm they’re gonna cut off. I mean and other people are More like you who just very adamant about, you know, cake or pie.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:54:59]:

And what’s if if you tally it up, who’s winning, cake or pie?

Scott Cowan [00:55:04]:

So one of the things I need to do is go Cowan, and one of the things I wanna do is, like, this will we we’ve done almost 300 episodes now, and we haven’t always asked this question, but we’ve is question for a good 150 episodes. I need to go back. My gut is telling me that Pai is in the lead.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:55:21]:

That’s good. That gives that gives me that gives me hope for the future.

Scott Cowan [00:55:25]:

Yeah. I mean, I I’m glad I could help. No. It it’s pie is I and, Honestly, my gut is telling me that pie is substantially in the lead. Like But that could be just selective memory on my part.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:55:40]:

Yet, if you go to a birthday party, it’s always cake. If you go to a wedding, it’s cake. My friend, Ed, actually, when he got married, Instead of having a wedding cake, they just had a selection of great pies. I was like, ah, this is so smart.

Scott Cowan [00:56:01]:

I had

 Tom Llewellyn [00:56:01]:

so much respect for that decision. Good job, Ed.

Scott Cowan [00:56:04]:

There you go. Shout off to Ed. Alright. So if people so where can people find your books? Where can people find out more about you and what you do? And, where where should we send them to?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:56:17]:

Sure. You can buy the book, any of my books, but especially this latest Wenatchee 5 Possible tasks of Eden Smith published by Holiday House anywhere books are sold. So you can you can if if your local indie bookstore doesn’t own it If it doesn’t have it in stock, they can order it. Yeah. You can certainly buy it on Amazon, but, you know, support your local bookstore. You can find me Beyond the socials, I’m at Tommy Lou at, tommyllew on Twitter. I think Tommy Liu is also my Instagram handle if you wanna follow me there, and I have a blog, just tommyloudot Scott if you wanna follow me there.

Scott Cowan [00:56:58]:

Awesome. Anything that we didn’t touch on today that you’d Like to wrap this up with?

 Tom Llewellyn [00:57:06]:

I don’t think so, Scott. I mean, I think you did a great job. And, I I I love this Theme of exploring Washington Scott, and I love the way you’re doing it through people and their, individual experiences. So, thanks for what you’re doing, man.

Scott Cowan [00:57:21]:

Alright. Well, thank you for taking the time to be with me today, man. I really had a good time, and looking forward to having you back on.

 Tom Llewellyn [00:57:26]:

Alright. Cool. Me too.