Snowdrift Cider Company Single Origin Ciders, Perries and More. The OG Cider Company in Washington State

Snowdrift Cider Company founder Peter Ringsrud is our guest for this episode. Peter is one of the original commercial cider makers in Washington State.

Are you a fan of world class Cider? How about a Perry made using the Champagne method? Snowdrift Cider Company has you covered.

This episode is full of information on Cider making. If you want to know how your cider is being made listen in to Peter as he talks about some of the steps in making his award winning ciders. Did you know that the Perry that Snowdrift makes is aged in the bottle and is turned by hand just like the best Champagne in the world?

We are sitting outside the Snowdrift tasting room during our conversation. You will hear the sounds from a working orchard throughout the episode.

Cider fans this one is for you!

Snowdrift Cider Peters Ringsrud Episode Transcript

Welcome to the Exploring Washington State podcast. Here’s your host, Scott Cowan.

Scott Cowan [00:00:25]:

Today, I’m on-site at Snowdrift Cider with the founder of Peter Ringsrud and we are sitting outside of the cidery. And so you’re gonna hear birds chirping and tractors doing what they’re doing and the sounds of a cidery and an orchard in in in full force. So, Peter Ringsrud, thank you for being here today. And how about if I ask you to share your story of how you started Snowdrift?

Peter Ringsrud [00:00:51]:

Certainly. And thank you for this opportunity. I’m a commercial fruit grower, and we got kinda tired of, being at the bottom of the food chain on the commercial industry, and so you got whatever was left over. And so we wanted to do something that was vertically integrated. We had been trying to make cider with the apples that we grew, which were the dessert apples. And, horror was about the best I could come up with. And, my son said, well, there’s bringing a guy in from The UK to talk about making cider. And so I took the class for at WSU Mount Vernon and from Peter Ringsrud Mitchell, and it’s sort of like, oh my gosh.

Scott Cowan [00:01:41]:

We’re using the wrong fruit. And so then in 02/2006, I had an opportunity through Dean Neff in he had a orchard with some cider fruit in it in Peter Ringsruds. And so we had all these carboys up and down in the in the garage, and it was sort of like they went from pale straw in color to deep amber. The flavor characteristics were just, out of this world. And so then as a family, we had to decide if it was gonna be an expensive hobby or if we’re gonna do this for real. And so that’s pretty much how we started.

Peter Ringsrud [00:02:18]:

So for for people that don’t understand, I’ve heard you’re not the first person to say dessert fruit. What do you mean by that?

Scott Cowan [00:02:30]:

Well, dessert fruit is like the apples that you would get from the store. Red’s and Goldens used to be the main ones. Now, you got, Cosmic Crisp and Honeycrisp, and Gala is the biggest produce, biggest apple producer out there. But all of those have, water and sugar and acid, like, Fuji’s are low acid. And, that works for eating, but when you have yeast consuming the sugar in the apple, apple juice, you get a slightly alcoholic sour drink with no flavor characteristics. And so when we talk about cider fruit, we focus on a lot of the English and, old American varieties that have tannins in them, and they give the flavor characteristics.

Peter Ringsrud [00:03:20]:

So then it’s the tannins that give us the the tasty cider that we are Those of us who like cider, that’s what we’re looking for. Is it is it the is it the tannins that bring us the flavor?

Scott Cowan [00:03:32]:

It’s the tannins that are actually and there’s a whole bunch of different types of tannins that get and they’re what give you the flavor characteristics.

Peter Ringsrud [00:03:40]:

So now as we sit here in in in the background, you’re gonna hear a a tractor. Are you growing your own fruit for the the cider? Are you are you sourcing it from other places locally? Or where do you get your cider fruit?

Scott Cowan [00:03:55]:

Okay. The majority of the the cider fruit that we use for our core products and and that, we grow ourself. Okay. And so we have about, eight acres. We have a test block that has about 35 different varieties in it. And then so that, we use those varieties for the main, apples that have the tannins in. We also have some draft products. And so that, we will purchase, processor cider from the, like, the source here in Wenatchee and use that as the base, and then we’ll add some of our, cider, fruit cider in that to give some of the flavor components.

Peter Ringsrud [00:04:41]:

When you started making cider commercially, what what were your ciders like? What what were your first commercial ciders?

Scott Cowan [00:04:53]:

What were they like?

Peter Ringsrud [00:04:55]:

Well, what did you like, have you evolved over the last fifteen years or so?

Scott Cowan [00:05:02]:

Okay. The first, actually, the first cider that the first two ciders that we had was, English style dry and, Cliff Breaks. Cliff Breaks was made with bittersweet, bitter sharp cider apples. English rye was main mainly made with just, bittersweet cider apples. And so, we we tried some of that, and we actually like, a year before we started, I took that around to some places and say, is this is this bottle worthy? And if this would it be something that you would be able to want to market in your facility? And we got really good results. So we started out with those two products. What has happened is that we have added additional products. Right now, we’re focusing on the branch series.

Scott Cowan [00:05:53]:

In the branch series, we focus more on single varietal apples. Nihao is an English bittersweet cider apple, and that’s a completely dry cider. Davenette is another bittersweet cider apple, and that has some we’ve had some done some back sweetening on that to kind of bridge between the beginning and ending flavor characteristics. We’ve done Kingston Black. We’ve done, Cap Liberty. So more we’re doing more right now to show people what cider fruit can taste like. We also have cornice. Cornice is a barrel aged cider, and so you pull pull out some of the oak and the vanilla characteristics from the toasted oak barrels.

Peter Ringsrud [00:06:40]:

So what were the barrels used for before you you aged the cider

Scott Cowan [00:06:44]:

in it? The best ones that we have are actually from Dry Fly, and so they were washing away whiskey. They’re

Peter Ringsrud [00:06:51]:

distilleries with canned. Okay. And does that change how does that change the flavor of I mean, you’re smiling. So, what how long are you aging it typically, and what does it can you describe the changes that it makes to the to the cider?

Scott Cowan [00:07:09]:

Well, I can start with an example when we first tried it. We had some Pink Lady cider that we’re about ready to get rid of because we didn’t like the bite that it had. And so we put some of the Pink Lady into these, oak barrels. And within a couple three days, that bite was gone. At at about a week, it started to pick up some of the oak and the vanilla characteristics. And we found that after six months in barrels like that, it was really pretty good. And so we figured, wow. We aren’t gonna screw up our cider.

Scott Cowan [00:07:45]:

So we then we decided to start doing it that way.

Peter Ringsrud [00:07:48]:

Did that change the alcohol content of the cider by aging it in a whiskey barrel?

Scott Cowan [00:07:53]:

No. It does not.

Peter Ringsrud [00:07:54]:

It doesn’t? Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:07:56]:

The you get on the first u use of a of a whiskey barrel, you get some of the spiritus notes. Okay. But you get more of the hint of the the oak and the vanilla, which is more in the bourbon whiskey characteristic.

Peter Ringsrud [00:08:16]:

You also have and I can’t I can’t place the the name of it, but, it’s in a clear bottle, and it’s a red, cider. And I apologize for not being able to say the name to you.

Scott Cowan [00:08:28]:

Red.

Peter Ringsrud [00:08:28]:

Red. See, I was right. Tell us the story about that because it’s in a clear bottle, and it’s it’s very appealing looking.

Scott Cowan [00:08:41]:

So, it’d be about six years ago or maybe a little bit longer ago. Stemilt Growers had been trying to develop a red fleshed eating apple. And so they came to us and said, we’ve been we’ve been trying this. It isn’t gonna work. Is there something you can do with it? And so, my son-in-law and I tasted them, Really, really high acid, punky on the inside, but we’re kinda used to that anyway. No tannins, and so we thought, I doubt it. And then so we told them and said, well, we’ll try four bins. And they said, well, we have 40 bins.

Scott Cowan [00:09:22]:

And we looked at each other and said, like, oh my gosh. What in the world are we gonna do with this? And because we pretty much had written it off because our paradigm said flavors come from tannins. This blew my paradigm of what flavor characteristics you get out of out of red fleshed apples because the red in the apple itself is a flavor characteristic that you find in berries. And so we’ll get, strawberry, raspberry, pomegranate, rhubarb characters out of it, and it’s all from from that anthocyanin in the in the apple itself.

Peter Ringsrud [00:10:01]:

So how did you guys end up turning it into a viable product then? If you if you thought you weren’t gonna be able to do anything and by the way, did you end up taking all 40 bins?

Scott Cowan [00:10:10]:

Yes.

Peter Ringsrud [00:10:10]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:10:11]:

We tried a whole pile of different things.

Peter Ringsrud [00:10:13]:

Okay. So I love to ask the question of what was a great idea that you had that didn’t work? Because I always think there’s a good story. But I kinda think here, you didn’t think it was gonna work. That’s but you made it work. So what what happened?

Scott Cowan [00:10:27]:

I I’m not so sure that I would say that we made it work. We would have written it off because that isn’t where we see the flavors coming from. And so this was something so new and unique. Number one, it was was really red. Number two, it had, berry character that only people were getting from adding berry concentrate to it. And, I mean, it worked out well. Now there it was problematic, that that red in it is actually very sensitive to acid level. And so if you let the acid level drop, then you lose your color.

Scott Cowan [00:11:12]:

And, right now, we’re having some issues with overcropping, and so we’ve lost a lot of the color.

Peter Ringsrud [00:11:19]:

What is overcropping?

Scott Cowan [00:11:23]:

In like in cider fruit, if we have they’re notorious for alternate bearing. So one year, they’ll have gangbusters, and next year, they’ll have nothing.

Peter Ringsrud [00:11:31]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:11:32]:

And so when it’s overcropped, like, on the year that they have a lot of stuff, you don’t get the flavors and the sugars and the characteristics that you want. And so in in what we see now is that, the last couple years of the color has gone down. The flavors are still there, but it’s not the it doesn’t the high standard that we were looking for.

Peter Ringsrud [00:11:59]:

From a very layman’s point of view, and like I told you before we started, you know, I’m not a wine person, but I somehow in my brain, I’ve read or heard somewhere that grapes do well when they struggle. Is in is that the same with this fruit? The does it if it’s an abundant crop, you lose what you’re looking for. For. So is it in the years that it has a little bit more challenge that brings out the characteristics, or am I just completely wrong?

Scott Cowan [00:12:29]:

Well, I don’t know if we know enough about that. Next year, we’re working with WSU, and we’re gonna be doing some deficit water, because we’ve had some apples from around Grangeville. We’re down in Idaho. Okay. And they have almost no water there. And so the flavor characteristics and the sugars were absolutely wonderful. The size was horrid.

Peter Ringsrud [00:12:57]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:12:58]:

And I think what happens is coming from a commercial background, we’re pumping the fruit up too much, getting too much water in it. But, yes, in that way, that struggled, and they did really well. But, there’s a difference between struggling because you’re trying to manage. You’re trying to grow too much on on a on a on a tree or branch, and, it just doesn’t work. In the in the wine industry, you are very careful about the number of clusters that you have on your on your vines because it won’t it won’t have the same flavor, everything, if it’s overgrown.

Peter Ringsrud [00:13:35]:

So it is kind of similar then in

Scott Cowan [00:13:37]:

the word?

Peter Ringsrud [00:13:37]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:13:39]:

But stressing stressing from trying to have too much growing is a different kind of stress than lack of water, you know, sun, that kind of stuff.

Peter Ringsrud [00:13:56]:

What other products do you have right now? Because when we were in here month ago, I think ish, I know I’ll come back to it. There was a a Perry, so we’ll we’ll table that for a second.

Scott Cowan [00:14:09]:

Okay.

Peter Ringsrud [00:14:10]:

What other, Apple products do you have right now? We I feel like we’re we left something out. And I

Scott Cowan [00:14:18]:

So we have the we have the ciders. Mhmm. Right now, we we have had Pomo. And pamoa is made with with, apple juice, and, it’s actually more made more like a, port. And so you take the juice, you just we put it in the barrels, and we add the spirits to it. And so then we have to let it age in those barrels for sixteen months to be able to call it Pemoa.

Peter Ringsrud [00:14:52]:

And what type of barrels is is that aging in?

Scott Cowan [00:14:54]:

American oak barrels. American oak barrels.

Peter Ringsrud [00:14:55]:

I know those from another are they being re repurposed from another or these new

Scott Cowan [00:15:00]:

They’re re no. They’re repurposed. Correct.

Peter Ringsrud [00:15:02]:

Was originally in those?

Scott Cowan [00:15:04]:

Like like our pomelo like our, cornice. Okay. They were from, Whiskey. Whiskey. Okay.

Peter Ringsrud [00:15:13]:

Are there any other Apple products that we’re missing?

Scott Cowan [00:15:24]:

Apple products as far as

Peter Ringsrud [00:15:27]:

Varieties of ciders that you’re carrying right now. I don’t think I think we kinda covered them all. So let me go this direction. You sell it in bottles?

Scott Cowan [00:15:39]:

That’s correct.

Peter Ringsrud [00:15:40]:

Do do any of your products come in cans?

Scott Cowan [00:15:44]:

No. They do not.

Peter Ringsrud [00:15:45]:

And then do do any of your products are any of your products available in kegs?

Scott Cowan [00:15:50]:

I would say that, about 90% of our product is actually in in kegs that goes to, like, pubs and restaurants and that kind of stuff.

Peter Ringsrud [00:16:03]:

If you if I were to open a bottle, pour you a glass, and then properly pour you the same cider from a keg and set them in front of you without you knowing which was which, would you be able to tell?

Scott Cowan [00:16:19]:

Normally, what happens is when in in the bottle, we have pasteurized that, and so we we heat the cider in in the bottle to kill off the the yeast cells. And so that pasteurization the heat from that pasteurization actually has some flavor characteristic changes. And so it becomes more of a a melding of flavors together, or what goes into the keg comes out brighter and, is more,

Peter Ringsrud [00:16:50]:

pronounced notes. So you would be able to tell.

Scott Cowan [00:16:53]:

Correct. Okay. So there’s a good palate

Peter Ringsrud [00:16:55]:

because I wouldn’t probably be able to.

Scott Cowan [00:16:57]:

Well, my my palate’s, pretty much shot after all these all these years.

Peter Ringsrud [00:17:02]:

I’ve always I’ve always wanted to ask that because well, then the other question is, since you don’t have any products in cans, does does a cider in a can have different characteristics than that same cider if it was in a bottle or a keg?

Scott Cowan [00:17:19]:

Well, we have

Peter Ringsrud [00:17:22]:

a

Scott Cowan [00:17:22]:

collaborative prod product that we did with Herb Cider in, Bellingham, Archibald, and, Cashmere. Okay. And, and so each of us provided a one third of the cider that went into that, and Herb Cider put it in a can. And so we have that here. Okay. We’re we’re concerned about the shelf life of cider in cans, and so so we haven’t

Peter Ringsrud [00:17:55]:

Just have

Scott Cowan [00:17:56]:

to be something

Peter Ringsrud [00:17:57]:

you’ve gone to?

Scott Cowan [00:17:57]:

No. We’ve, when we started, we were all seven fifties or or kegs. We got a lot of push from this distribution to go to a single surveying format. And so we do seven fifties and five hundreds now. And immediately, as we when we went to five hundreds and they started saying, we want cans, it’s sort of like, no. And and and the and it had to mainly has to do with the shelf life.

Peter Ringsrud [00:18:29]:

So what do you think, a shelf life would be? I mean, arbitrarily of of a of a cider in a can. Is it drastically reduced? What and why would that be versus, say, in a bottle?

Scott Cowan [00:18:42]:

It has malic acid attacks the lining in the can. K. And so it’s it’s the most highly corrosive acid that that you can have. And so a lot of other things can be in cans for a long period of time, and they don’t have that issue with with bottles.

Peter Ringsrud [00:18:58]:

But cider cider does.

Scott Cowan [00:19:01]:

Cider does. And I, you know, they’ve I think they’ve the canning companies have backed off and saying, well, we can only allow it out. We only guarantee it for six months, and I think they’re backing off from that.

Peter Ringsrud [00:19:16]:

Oh.

Scott Cowan [00:19:16]:

And, and I there’s some difference things that they’re looking at. And so Okay. But a can is is a can is a good single serving It’s convenient. Opportunity. It’s

Peter Ringsrud [00:19:29]:

convenient. You know?

Scott Cowan [00:19:32]:

Well, you can take it where you don’t have to worry about breakage. Right.

Peter Ringsrud [00:19:37]:

Do you do, I know you do a perry, but do you do any other fruit ciders other than apple and pear?

Scott Cowan [00:19:44]:

We we just do apple and pear. Okay.

Peter Ringsrud [00:19:47]:

So let’s let’s I I’ll grind the gears here, and we’re gonna jump to pear without being clean about it. Your pear is amazing. I I really like that, and that was probably the first thing I ever tried. And I picked up a bottle of it in Downtown Wenatchee not knowing anything about you. And I go, oh, this sounds kinda cool and, you know, this this is neat with you. So the label worked, and I find it delicious. How did you start doing a pair product?

Scott Cowan [00:20:21]:

Well, when, when we were first getting started, my daughter and son-in-law, they decided to, sell their condo, quit their jobs, and go biking in Europe for a year. That sounds great, actually. And, when they were over there, we went over and visited them in, the West Country in in The UK, and we stayed in Bath. And then we toured a bunch of different, cideries and the like. And probably probably the the high point was when we had a chance to tour and and go to Tom Oliver’s, place in Herpeture. Tom Oliver sells cider in Peri, but he does all bottle condition, and he he is he’s one of the triumphant of the the three head the the head three in the Peri industry in The UK.

Peter Ringsrud [00:21:16]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:21:17]:

And so we had a wonderful time. We tried a whole bunch of different parries and and that, you know, sort of like, oh my gosh. This is absolutely incredible. And, so when we got back, we said, you know, we really need to try it, and we’ve been talking about doing a parry. And so we decided, okay. We will do a what we we now call a reserve parry, with our parry pairs and some some heirloom pairs. We get some heirloom pairs from Scott McManus in Cashmere. And, it was it was really good.

Scott Cowan [00:22:01]:

And we actually did the champagne method like, Tom did.

Peter Ringsrud [00:22:05]:

So I’m gonna ask you to stop right there, and I’m gonna ask you to explain the champagne method, please.

Scott Cowan [00:22:12]:

Okay. So that the simple way is saying that that’s, in bottle fermentation.

Peter Ringsrud [00:22:17]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:22:17]:

And so when you talk about, method ancestral, that means that it’s just bottle conditioned. And so you have you add the yeast or you get it down to a certain in the fermentation process, and then you then you cork it or or crown it and let let the yeast do its job in developing the carbonation. In Method Champion, what we do is we we let it go through completely through fermentation and let it let it age in stainless for about eighteen months to two years, and then we’ll start in bottle fermentation. So we’ll take that out. We’ll bottle it, add a little bit of, nutrients and some sugar and yeast to it, and then and then let it let it, ferment in the bottle again. And so it gets a different bubble, and it gets a different flavor characteristic because the cider is on the leaves, which is the dead yeast cells in the bottom of the bottle. And so then we will take it aft and then we’ll take it, and we’ll put it up on on neck down, and we’ll swirl it. And you can see it, see the the current in the bottle loosen the the leaves or the, sediment in the bottom, and then we will riddle it.

Scott Cowan [00:23:34]:

And so for about two weeks, we’ll turn it about a third turn. It’s neck down. And after that, then we’ll let it sit, and then we’ll disgorge it. And so we have some large, ice chest that we do, salt brine, like ice making ice ice cream Right. And freeze the neck of the bottle, and then we will, take it out and start raising it up and pop the the cap off, and it will blow the ice plug out the end and little bit of foaming off out of the end, and then we’ll take that back and top it up. And we use a dishage, little additional invert sugar and a little bit of spirits in it, and then cork it and it’s ready to go.

Peter Ringsrud [00:24:23]:

So this is a very labor intensive process.

Scott Cowan [00:24:25]:

It’s a pain.

Peter Ringsrud [00:24:27]:

I had no idea. I had I mean, I have a no idea about lots of things in this, but I had no idea that there was this many steps in the process. Because being blunt, that bottle of Perry’s not a price point I was, like, expecting. No. Not complaining. I just I when I bought it, I didn’t look. And I’m like, oh, but it was it was amazing. But I had no idea, zero idea that there was as much as many steps.

Scott Cowan [00:25:00]:

Correct. We have Yeah. We also have a cider maker’s reserve, which uses the champagne method Mhmm. On our high end, and that’s is

Peter Ringsrud [00:25:08]:

that the same? All those steps are the same?

Scott Cowan [00:25:11]:

Same steps. Exactly.

Peter Ringsrud [00:25:14]:

I wow. Okay. It’s delicious, so please keep doing it. How has the perry been received in the marketplace?

Scott Cowan [00:25:24]:

We have, we actually have two peris. Okay. And one is called semi dry peri, and that’s in 500 ml bottles. Right. And so that uses, like, anjo pears and the cider from anjo pears, and then we blend in some of the pear repairs, to give some of the flavor characteristics. And that’s been accepted really well. That has a a lot lower lower price point. Sure.

Scott Cowan [00:25:54]:

The price point is a challenge, for the champagne method.

Peter Ringsrud [00:25:59]:

Well, it’s interesting because it’s not that expensive. I mean, if I were to buy a bottle of of it here today, what does retailing?

Scott Cowan [00:26:06]:

40.

Peter Ringsrud [00:26:07]:

40 dollars. Okay. I my friends that drink wine don’t blink an eye at $40 bottles of wine.

Scott Cowan [00:26:14]:

That’s true.

Peter Ringsrud [00:26:15]:

So I don’t I think we gotta reframe this conversation.

Scott Cowan [00:26:18]:

Well, when we have when we have people come to the tasting room, from a wine background, they all they’ll say is, you got everything’s too cheap. Everything’s too cheap. But, when we’re in distribution, we have to take a look at price point on the shelf. Right. Do you wanna move one bottle, or do you wanna move several cases?

Peter Ringsrud [00:26:43]:

Right. But I still don’t think that 40 it it was

Scott Cowan [00:26:48]:

A shock.

Peter Ringsrud [00:26:49]:

I shocked’s not the right word. It was like, oh, you know, like, it it gave me pause. I bought more than one though, so it’s, you know, it’s a no complaints. But I had no idea. I think how do you share that knowledge though with the consumer that this is I had I mean, I’m stunned at how intensive it is.

Scott Cowan [00:27:11]:

The oh, you mean the process?

Peter Ringsrud [00:27:14]:

Yeah. I mean, if if if so if consumer walks into store and sees your a bottle and they go $40 and they have no knowledge about what went into it versus if they went in and went all of it’s all of it went into it, it’s $4.04 oh, $40. Like, you know, it’s like changing that mindset of the the consumer. How do you do that? How do you get the word out about this method? And how how does one educate the consumer?

Scott Cowan [00:27:48]:

The what we have found really the the best way that that works is when people come out to the tasting room or if we go, or if we have have an event where we go somewhere and they have a chance to to try it. But So

Peter Ringsrud [00:28:04]:

I’m gonna ask you if you do a lot of events knowing full well that for the last year and a half, the answer to that was no. But prior to the pandemic, were you guys getting out and showcasing your products at events?

Scott Cowan [00:28:16]:

We were we were doing that. I wasn’t, but, we had a couple people that were actually trying to hit up the main events. Mhmm. What kind of some of the problem there is there on a weekend where I have the tasting room open, and I really need to be here. Sure. And so, some events are really, really good, and some events are questionable.

Peter Ringsrud [00:28:44]:

I think we’ve just described every event, haven’t we? So the champagne method that uses a different yeast than, quote, unquote, normal cider. Are you using the same yeasts across all of your products?

Scott Cowan [00:29:06]:

We we use a champagne yeast across all of our products because we like the the way that that what that does. We were doing with a certain champagne yeast, which was a good yeast that was a could start, could restart stuck fermentation. So if you have a wild ferment that starts, this would clean it up and finish off with a with a good, finish. We’ve had to change we’ve we’ve changed to a different champagne yeast that that does not produce sulfur, but it has to ferment at a higher temperature. But that’s about the only difference.

Peter Ringsrud [00:29:50]:

So how about we have yeast one zero one? What’s the difference between a champagne yeast and a norm another type of yeast. What’s what’s why are you calling it champagne yeast? What what’s the difference?

Scott Cowan [00:30:10]:

What’s the difference? They’ve been pretty much developed to do the champagne, and they’ll do more on the fusils and that kind of stuff. Where there’s a lot of the red wine yeast and that kind of stuff, they don’t give the flavor characteristics that we want, and I’ve not been happy with, ever with with any of the the cider yeast that people have had. So it just it just works the best.

Peter Ringsrud [00:30:43]:

Okay. And then you say that it has to ferment at a higher temperature?

Scott Cowan [00:30:49]:

The the newest one we have has has a fermented a higher temperature.

Peter Ringsrud [00:30:52]:

And what temperature is that approximately?

Scott Cowan [00:30:55]:

It’s got it’s gotta be 50 little above 51. Okay. Where the earlier champagne yeast, we could actually put it in when we laid it in bottles in the in the barrel room at forty forty forty four, it worked fine.

Peter Ringsrud [00:31:10]:

But Oh.

Scott Cowan [00:31:11]:

This other one you move in there and it stops. Now you have to move it back out and heat it up so it get it going again. And if you get it down to below its 51 degrees, then it stops.

Peter Ringsrud [00:31:23]:

So this what impact does temperature have on flavor? Or does it?

Scott Cowan [00:31:31]:

Temperature has a couple different we like to ferment our ciders with at no higher than sixty, sixty two, 60 four degrees. And so what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to control the rate of fermentation by temperature. The whole tank will go exothermic if you don’t chill the tank.

Peter Ringsrud [00:31:55]:

Exothermic?

Scott Cowan [00:31:56]:

It’d mean it it could heat up to eighty eighty some degrees just because of the the heat of the fermentation. And so at that point, it it just goes nuts and you blow all your flavor characteristics out the top.

Peter Ringsrud [00:32:09]:

So by keeping it on a controlled lower temperature, then it’s you that’s keeping those flavor characteristics that you’re looking for more intact.

Scott Cowan [00:32:17]:

That’s correct.

Peter Ringsrud [00:32:18]:

Okay. So

Scott Cowan [00:32:19]:

In in in in in the in the cider itself as opposed to just blowing off molecules at the top. Okay. Alright.

Peter Ringsrud [00:32:28]:

Should’ve thought this was gonna be a science lesson, but I guess I didn’t. But I actually

Scott Cowan [00:32:31]:

Well, the problem is you’re talking to an engineer.

Peter Ringsrud [00:32:33]:

I’ve actually thought you’d be fascinated. And you there might not be an answer to this question. What’s on the horizon for snow drift? New product? Anything? You know? That and I’m putting you on the spot because, you know, no product is fine. But is there anything you guys are working on?

Scott Cowan [00:33:03]:

When we’re dependent on distribution, the with the with Wade distributors have been coming together and and being bought out by larger distributors, they’re pretty much saying this is what the price point needs to be. And our forefathers is a good product that is a keg product, which uses processor fruit and cider fruit, and we’re able to come in at the the price point that works for them

Peter Ringsrud [00:33:38]:

Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:33:38]:

But with flavor characteristics from cider food in it. And so there’s a couple other things we’re looking at, that would more be seasonal. In the past, we’ve had winter red, which was a concentrated red, and the the colors aren’t there. And so we’re looking at maybe doing kind of a maybe a a spiced winter, cider. And K. We put together a recipe for hot spice cider using cornice and that kind of stuff. And, I mean, you put almost nothing in it, and you get some of that flavor characteristic. You know, like like you put it in a barrel, and you get pick up the oak and the and the vanilla.

Scott Cowan [00:34:19]:

And so that’s that’s one thing we’re looking at. But we’re wanting to focus more back on the the single varietals. We have a couple rows of, which is a French cider cider apple that has we’ll probably do more with that.

Peter Ringsrud [00:34:39]:

So as I look over to my right for the visual when you say row, how many trees are we talking about?

Scott Cowan [00:34:50]:

In a row?

Peter Ringsrud [00:34:50]:

In a row in your rows.

Scott Cowan [00:34:52]:

Oh, probably about a 20.

Peter Ringsrud [00:34:54]:

So you got 240 of those trees.

Scott Cowan [00:34:57]:

Correct. Well, plus plus some in our test block back here. But yeah.

Peter Ringsrud [00:35:01]:

And are they basically looking like these trees right over here, or do you have them on on a

Scott Cowan [00:35:07]:

No. They’re they’re they’re not on a Trello system like here, which is Cosmic Crisp.

Peter Ringsrud [00:35:12]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:35:12]:

They’re they’ve been grafted over from the the Red Delicious and so So

Peter Ringsrud [00:35:19]:

more like a what I think a traditional apple tree looks like versus

Scott Cowan [00:35:23]:

Free freestanding.

Peter Ringsrud [00:35:25]:

Free okay. Freestanding. Thank you. Because when you drive so like I told you before, we so when we moved over here and we drove around, I’m like, what what’s going on with all these trees? I mean, they were all trellised up, and I’m used to looking at an apple tree that looks like you can climb on it.

Scott Cowan [00:35:42]:

Like the Granny Smith to your right.

Peter Ringsrud [00:35:44]:

Yes. You know, and and that’s not what I see a lot of is I see a lot of the Trellis stuff here.

Scott Cowan [00:35:52]:

So what you what’s really happening is that, you’re in a Trello system, you’re providing the support to it, and, technically, you’re just growing a branch a fruiting branch. Okay. And so, there’s there’s another term that they use. They talk about a a tree wall or a fruiting wall. And so it’s a very controlled, environment and that kind of stuff.

Peter Ringsrud [00:36:17]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:36:17]:

And so you’re looking at very high production. Mhmm. When you when you have to develop, like, the Granny Smith here, when you have to develop the the trunk and the leaders and all that kind of stuff, a tree wall, you have can have fruit in three years. Right. This way, you have to spend a lot of time and energy to bring it up to, sort of to support itself. Now when we graft, we’ll go through and we’ll cut off, virtually everything and then put in, six signs. And so you still got all the SCIO in us.

Peter Ringsrud [00:36:53]:

Thank you.

Scott Cowan [00:36:54]:

And you, you you the root is pushing so much energy. We’ll get eight feet of growth on those on those signs that are, what, six, seven inches long.

Peter Ringsrud [00:37:06]:

So you’re taking a, like, a a red delicious

Scott Cowan [00:37:10]:

That’s correct. Tree,

Peter Ringsrud [00:37:13]:

cutting it back. Right?

Scott Cowan [00:37:16]:

Well, more than just cutting it

Peter Ringsrud [00:37:18]:

back. Okay. And then you’re grafting on the cider fruit.

Scott Cowan [00:37:24]:

Correct.

Peter Ringsrud [00:37:27]:

How so if we were to go do that today Mhmm. To graft on six signs, when would that be producing fruit?

Scott Cowan [00:37:38]:

I have some I have four rows that we grafted two years ago.

Peter Ringsrud [00:37:42]:

K.

Scott Cowan [00:37:43]:

And so they have fruit on them this year. I’m not gonna let them let them, produce fruit because I want them to fill out first. But, I have some that is in its third year, and it will be growing its first crop

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:00]:

this year. So you’ll go and remove the fruit from the two year olds.

Scott Cowan [00:38:04]:

That’s

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:05]:

correct. Energy will go, and the tree will put energy into building itself versus

Scott Cowan [00:38:10]:

Building the structure. Correct.

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:11]:

Okay. So in three years or three years ish, three, four years, you can start to have a crop of apples off of a graft.

Scott Cowan [00:38:21]:

So, off of off of those trees out there, in three years, you will probably have, oh, a 20% crop. Okay. And then that will Keep going. Keep going.

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:35]:

So when would you be fully productive? A % crop.

Scott Cowan [00:38:39]:

By the fifth year.

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:40]:

Fifth year. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:38:41]:

I mean, they I mean, the the problem is throttling them back and getting a load on them, so they’ll stop growing so much.

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:50]:

So this granny smith here that

Scott Cowan [00:38:52]:

you and

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:53]:

I can see, how old is this this tree ish?

Scott Cowan [00:38:57]:

20 ish?

Peter Ringsrud [00:38:58]:

Twenty years. And it’s got apples on it? It’s got fruit?

Scott Cowan [00:39:02]:

Correct.

Peter Ringsrud [00:39:03]:

It’s not really in production. I mean, you probably picked it. But is that

Scott Cowan [00:39:06]:

It’s only for private use? Right. If

Peter Ringsrud [00:39:09]:

it were in commercial production use, would it still be viable at twenty years?

Scott Cowan [00:39:15]:

Oh, yeah.

Peter Ringsrud [00:39:16]:

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:39:19]:

The the problem the problem in the fruit industry is you have new sexy hot items that come up. Right. And so we’ve gone through Honeycrisp, and Honeycrisp is still good. Now it’s Cosmiccrisp, and so, people are looking for the latest and greatest. And, you know, returns on greatest best. Yeah. Yeah. Returns and red delicious are really suck.

Peter Ringsrud [00:39:45]:

Right.

Scott Cowan [00:39:46]:

And and so when you’re comparing that with hundreds of dollars, well, $900 for, Cosmic Crisp and that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Peter Ringsrud [00:40:02]:

When you’re not being an orchardist and a cider maker, what do you do for fun?

Scott Cowan [00:40:13]:

Fun? What’s my wife and I enjoy getting out, and doing we used to do a lot of hiking, but right now, we get out enjoying the the flowers and the birds and that kind of stuff. And so we’ll do a lot of, day hikes in and around the area.

Peter Ringsrud [00:40:32]:

So give me an example of a day hike you guys like.

Scott Cowan [00:40:35]:

Oh, Marion and Claire, we’ll we’ll do that four times. Four, five times here.

Peter Ringsrud [00:40:40]:

Where’s that?

Scott Cowan [00:40:42]:

You go up to, like, Mission Ridge Okay. And and the parking lot. And then off on the right hand side, there’s a trail that goes up to Claire and Marianne. Okay. And so, that’s that’s been one of our one of our favorites. But, you know, we like getting up in the Stevens Pass area. I like the or we like even like going out to Ancient Lake, in the spring. K.

Scott Cowan [00:41:09]:

I we enjoy wild bombs, and so that’s what we look for.

Peter Ringsrud [00:41:12]:

Okay. Yeah. There’s a lot. We have an abundance of that, you know, at the right time of the year. Where well, so how do you like living in the Wenatchee area? I mean, I I you know, we moved over here four years ago. I can tell you my opinion, but you’ve been here a long time. Nothing’s changed.

Scott Cowan [00:41:36]:

Well, I I grew up in Cashmere.

Peter Ringsrud [00:41:39]:

Oh, nothing’s changed there at all.

Scott Cowan [00:41:41]:

And, all I wanted to do is get away.

Peter Ringsrud [00:41:49]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:41:50]:

Okay? And, and my dad said, well, I think you should stick stick around and earn some money and and buy an orchard and that kind of stuff. And I said, no. I wanna do something. I do not wanna have my life dictated by the frost and the bugs and that kind of stuff. And so I went to the U, and I’m I’m a civil engineer. Worked five years in the Seattle area, and and my wife and I said, you know, she’s from Euphrader. We really don’t wanna raise a family over here. And so, we tried to I tried to transfer back in, to the district here and didn’t work.

Scott Cowan [00:42:30]:

It was closed. And so happened to mention to my father-in-law, you know, it’d be really nice. I’m thinking about wanting to go back into orcharding again. And he jumped all over that, and it’s sort of like, I didn’t understand. I do now, to get his his kids back home closer. Right. And, so my dad had a lot of I told you so’s. I told you so.

Scott Cowan [00:42:57]:

And, farming is in your blood, and it’s hard it’s hard to beat. So

Peter Ringsrud [00:43:04]:

Well, it’s the easiest way to make a living. I mean, I’ve never met anybody in the agricultural business that wouldn’t have thrown something at me for saying that. I don’t you know, and you had said frost and bugs and all that. I I don’t have the stomach for it. I applaud you and admire you, and we need you, but not for me.

Scott Cowan [00:43:27]:

Well, When we purchased the orchard, we were looking at gosh. I think it was 3,000 an acre.

Peter Ringsrud [00:43:45]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:43:47]:

And, you can’t touch anything around here for 10 times that?

Peter Ringsrud [00:43:52]:

Probably more like 20 times that.

Scott Cowan [00:43:54]:

And so

Peter Ringsrud [00:43:55]:

Probably looking at 60 an acre now. Right?

Scott Cowan [00:43:57]:

And you can’t you can’t you can’t handle that, the PNI on that kind of debt. And so it’s, it’s gotten to the point where it’s forcing other ways of of moving the industry. And so, you know, the gold ones in the bottom of the orchard, they they’re an older block, and they’ve been doing a hundred bins to the acre. And Did you

Peter Ringsrud [00:44:26]:

say a hundred bins to the acre?

Scott Cowan [00:44:28]:

Uh-huh. Oh. And and so the high density stuff, on these, you know, tree walls, they’re doing hundred bins, 200 bins, that kind of stuff to the acre. And so they, if it’s not producing if it’s if it’s below a hundred bins, I mean, they’re looking at something different.

Peter Ringsrud [00:44:51]:

I read somewhere you know, big sign is you come into Wenatchee, you know, Wenatchee area. It does say area in small print, but Wenatchee, apple capital of the world. Right? There’s that big sign that we all see. And growing up on the West Side and I went to school in Ellensburg at Central. Wenatchee, apples. I mean, that’s just those two words are linked together. And I read in the Peter Ringsruds, it was either five or seven acres of apples is all that’s left in the city when I came in. I was really

Scott Cowan [00:45:27]:

It didn’t surprise me.

Peter Ringsrud [00:45:28]:

It doesn’t it it it surprised me when I read it, and then I think about it. It doesn’t surprise me. But

Scott Cowan [00:45:36]:

Well, when you come out here, and we’re not in town. Right. When you come out here, especially, like, the arterials, you you have to have spray drift. Like, it’s it’s horrendous. Right. And people don’t like hearing the sprayer going off at 04:00 in the morning.

Peter Ringsrud [00:45:59]:

Yeah. Why does it have to be at 4AM?

Scott Cowan [00:46:02]:

It might be the only time that it’s gonna be cooling up and and no wind. Right. Like the my brother who has a PTO spare and that’s noisy. My neighbor has an engine driven that’s, twice as noisy.

Peter Ringsrud [00:46:15]:

Is that the the blade you see up on this like, I see these towers with like, right there.

Scott Cowan [00:46:20]:

Oh, those those are wind machines. That’s frost control.

Peter Ringsrud [00:46:23]:

Frost control. Does that actually work?

Scott Cowan [00:46:25]:

You betcha.

Peter Ringsrud [00:46:27]:

Interesting.

Scott Cowan [00:46:27]:

So what it’s what it’s doing is you, cold air flows down through the low low low spots. So, like, behind you in front of the house there, it flows down through there and then ponds up in the bottom down there. And so the the wind machines, they not only, spin, but they also rotate. And so they’re mixing the warmer air in with the colder air. Okay.

Peter Ringsrud [00:46:55]:

Last question before we get going and wrap this up. Putting you on the spot in a hopefully in a good way. It said before we hit record, pandemic was a time out for all of us. But as a business Right. What lesson what lessons have you learned after as we’re getting through the pandemic as far as snowdrift goes. Because I think the apple orchards were not as were they affected? Was your commercial fruit affected by the pandemic all that much?

Scott Cowan [00:47:31]:

Not to the extent that that ours was. I mean, the The cider. The cider.

Peter Ringsrud [00:47:37]:

Correct. But as a business, what did you did you adjust what you were doing to stay viable?

Scott Cowan [00:47:47]:

So what we did is we with the distributors, they have about six months supply. And so when things shut down, I mean, we had nothing going on. And so we focused more on Internet sales. Mhmm. We didn’t make a lot, but we had enough cash flow that really worked. And so, it really helped us change back to focusing on more on the retail side, cider club, and all of those type of things. And

Peter Ringsrud [00:48:26]:

tickets tied out for that coach because he’s really loud right now, and I I wanna I wanna hear that. So how long does that PTO oh, I’ve never actually seen it working. So how long can it run before he has to fill it up again?

Scott Cowan [00:48:45]:

He’s the the sprayer is a 400 gallon sprayer. Okay. And so, he’s he’s doing 200 gallons to the acre. So it’s it’s two acres, and so he’s driving about two miles an hour. So

Peter Ringsrud [00:48:58]:

Okay. Alright. So let’s go back. Let’s pick up at the cider.

Scott Cowan [00:49:03]:

So what what we what we looked at in in this time out is sort of like, what can we do, to to move products? And so we did we did some specialty offerings, you know, we did some vertical taste vertical, products from several years back, and and, and so we we talked about 05:00 at home. And so we had I mean, and we were offering free shipping. Okay. And, I mean, we had very good response with that. Cider Club is an opportunity where there’s significant savings on cider club. I would say probably 90% of our cider clubs are out of town, and so we ship to them. And so that works.

Peter Ringsrud [00:49:59]:

Is there there must be challenges in shipping alcohol, and balls. I mean, you’re shipping a breakable item that’s got alcohol on it.

Scott Cowan [00:50:09]:

Well but what we do is, we have to have, special shipping containers. So we just don’t take a case of cider and then ship it. But then, we we do we have a through we have a license through, UPS for local and state. Okay. And then we use a compliant shipper for all the other shipping that we do Out state. Out of out of state. So Okay.

Peter Ringsrud [00:50:39]:

I’ve always I’ve always wondered that about, because other businesses I’ve talked to, they’re kind of the word that’s been overused the most pivoted towards retail. I you know, this fulfillment aspect is different. I’m gonna guess that if your distributor’s placing an order, it’s for, a larger number of cases than if Bill Smith is ordering a couple of bottles to be shipped to Seattle. You know?

Scott Cowan [00:51:07]:

Well, and shipping. Yeah. And the distributor, with what we see, they’re we we sell more kegs

Peter Ringsrud [00:51:15]:

Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:51:15]:

Than cases.

Peter Ringsrud [00:51:16]:

K.

Scott Cowan [00:51:17]:

And people coming out here in the cider club, they don’t have access to the cake. Well, we have some people who do buy kegs from us. Oh. But most of what we do is send send bottles.

Peter Ringsrud [00:51:31]:

So you got the cider club, I don’t wanna say renewed, but you revisited retail?

Scott Cowan [00:51:40]:

Yeah. We do a lot of online sales. Yep. Mhmm. The tasting area, with COVID, you know, we couldn’t do any tasting at the bar. Right. And so, then we had our wintertime okay as long as you taste it outside or you had freezing cold air flowing through where you’re trying to taste, and it’s sort of like but what it what it’s done is, we have it allowed us to say, you know, we have time, and we have space that we can offer people.

Peter Ringsrud [00:52:21]:

Right.

Scott Cowan [00:52:21]:

And so we have some picnic tables here that people can come out. They can bring food, they with with their friends, and, you know, they can do tastings or they can buy flights or they can buy bottles to share, that kind of stuff, and hang out.

Peter Ringsrud [00:52:36]:

So let’s wrap up by you telling our listeners where they can find Snowdrift.

Scott Cowan [00:52:46]:

Right, right at this point, we’re distributing, both Westside and Eastside. The majority of the the the places we have in the Westside would be, like, Total Wine and some some of the bottle shops and that. We’re less less served on Eastern Washington, but in Wenatchee, the liquor store in Ninth Street and, Plaza Superjet. Yep. They have that’s the best bottle shop there is in town.

Peter Ringsrud [00:53:17]:

It’s great.

Scott Cowan [00:53:18]:

And, so but that those type of things. And so, probably the the our best our best, client right now is actually Leavenworth Cider Company in in Leavenworth.

Peter Ringsrud [00:53:32]:

So Tasting Room is open?

Scott Cowan [00:53:35]:

Tasting tasting room is open, on from noon to five on Friday and Saturday. But, if people wanna make an appointment, that way I can get changed out of my orchard clothes, and we’re able to do it almost anytime during the week.

Peter Ringsrud [00:53:53]:

And online the address to find you?

Scott Cowan [00:53:56]:

Okay. On it’s online both with the with our website and and my email address and my number is is there. Okay. So

Peter Ringsrud [00:54:11]:

And what’s in it? Snowdriftcider.com. Correct?

Scott Cowan [00:54:14]:

Snowdriftcider.com. Right. And

Peter Ringsrud [00:54:16]:

we’ll put a link below so that people can click on that easily. What question didn’t I ask? Did I did we did I not ask a question that you wanna get get out there?

Scott Cowan [00:54:27]:

No. I think I’ve said enough.

Peter Ringsrud [00:54:29]:

Okay. Well, I appreciate you making time out of your busy orchard day to let me sit outside with you and because it’s a beautiful day, and I appreciate it. I learned a ton, which is why I do this. So thank you so much for making this happen.

Scott Cowan [00:54:42]:

Well, thank you so much for, considering us. Join us next time for another episode of the exploring Washington state podcast.