Growing Trees, Growing Futures: Ecological Forestry with Kirk Hanson

In this episode, we talk with Kirk Hanson, Director of Forestry at the Northwest Natural Resource Group, about his journey from Minnesota to Washington State and his work in sustainable forestry.

Kirk has spent years promoting ecologically sound forestry practices that benefit both forest health and landowners’ financial interests. His passion for nature has driven him to create a balance between conservation and economic gain for small forest landowners.

Kirk Hanson’s Forestry Path

Kirk’s love for the outdoors began in Minnesota, where he developed a fascination for nature and gardening. Upon moving to Washington State, he became captivated by the region’s lush forests and their potential. This inspiration led him to shift from public sector work to a nonprofit role at NNRG, where he now helps landowners manage their forests sustainably.

His role focuses on guiding forest owners to balance economic returns with conservation, using methods that promote long-term forest health.

Sustainable Forestry vs. Industrial Forestry

In this episode, Kirk discusses the differences between sustainable forestry and traditional industrial methods. Industrial forestry often relies on clear-cutting, which can damage the environment, deplete biodiversity, and degrade soil quality. Instead, Kirk advocates for perpetual thinning, a practice that selectively removes weaker trees to promote the growth of stronger ones. This method maintains biodiversity, supports forest resilience, and improves the long-term productivity of the land.

Kirk emphasizes that sustainable forestry can be both environmentally friendly and financially viable. Practices like tree pruning, habitat creation, and pre-commercial thinning ensure forests remain healthy while still generating revenue for landowners.

Timberland as a Sustainable Investment

Kirk also explores how timberland can be a sound investment, especially when approached from a sustainable perspective. He recommends purchasing properties with restrictive easements, which lower acquisition costs and guarantee responsible management. This allows for long-term access while maintaining the ecological value of the land. For forest owners, managing their timberland with these principles can offer both privacy and economic returns over time.

FSC Certification

Kirk discusses the importance of FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) certification, which ensures responsible forest management practices. He outlines how small forest landowners can navigate the certification process, which can open doors to new markets and help them sell timber at a higher value. Though challenging, FSC certification is a rewarding way for landowners to support sustainability while profiting from responsible forestry practices.

Looking Ahead: New Projects

Kirk also shares his plans for future projects, including a potential book on permaculture principles in forestry and women’s involvement in forest management. His future work will continue to explore ways landowners can take a more active role in sustainable forestry while blending it with broader ecological practices.

Key Takeaways:

• Sustainable forestry balances conservation with economic returns.
• Perpetual thinning and tree pruning enhance forest health.
• Timberland investment can be both profitable and ecologically responsible.
• FSC certification supports sustainability and opens new market opportunities.
• Kirk Hansen’s future work will continue to focus on practical, sustainable forestry solutions.

Links & Resources:

• Learn more about Kirk Hansen and the Northwest Natural Resource Group:
• Read Kirk’s co-authored book on ecological forest management:

Episode Transcript

Scott Cowan [00:00:04]:

Hello, friends, and welcome to the Exploring Washington State podcast. My name is Scott Cowan, and I’m the host of the show. Each episode, I have a conversation with an interesting guest who is living in or from Washington State. These are casual conversations with real and interesting people. I think you’re gonna like the show. So let’s jump right in with today’s guest. Alright. I am sitting here by myself, and Kirk Hanson is sitting in I’m gonna guess Olympia.

Scott Cowan [00:00:30]:

That’s what we’re gonna say. You’re right. It doesn’t matter. We can lie to the the folks. But, anyway, Kirk is the director of

Kirk Hanson [00:00:35]:

forestry and

Scott Cowan [00:00:37]:

has written a book. He’s the director of forestry for the Northwest Natural Resource Group and is the coauthor along with Seth Zuckerman, who’s the, also with your company, A Forest of Your Own, the Pacific Northwest Handbook of Ecological Forestry. Welcome.

Kirk Hanson [00:00:54]:

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Scott.

Scott Cowan [00:00:56]:

Little research on you. I see you’re not a native Washingtonian. Well, okay. That’s fine. Nope. Nobody’s native here anymore. It seems like I people like me are rare. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:01:06]:

But you grew up in Minnesota. As a kid, sounds like you were in a family that had a forest that you were main they were maintaining. Somehow, you left Minnesota and ended up here. So let’s start with that with you. How did you what brought you to Washington, and what’s keeping you here?

Kirk Hanson [00:01:28]:

Yeah. Well, let’s see. Shortly after I graduated from from high school, one of my sisters, said, hey. I wanna hike the Pacific Crest Trail, through Washington, Oregon, California. And she said, you wanna join me? And I’d never done anything like that before, you know, or come from a family traveler’s adventures, what have you. So I said, sure. And so our first stint was, hiking the PCT through Washington. So, we both flew out, spent a month hiking the 300 miles roughly from the Oregon border up up to, up to Canada.

Kirk Hanson [00:02:11]:

And I had never seen anything like the Cascade Mountains before in my life. Even though we’ve traveled all around the US, they blew my mind. You know, not only the ruggedness of the mountain, but the the old growth forests. You know, we were hiking through these massive primeval forests. And coming from a a forest owning, forest managing, you know, family in in Minnesota, to see these, you know, just ginormous trees and the, you know, rich, complex ecosystems of the old growth of the northwest, it it impressed me. So when a friend of my family said, you know, there there’s this college in Olympia that really seems to fit your personality, I I I was intrigued. You know, and and there’s there’s a saying that says, you know, when when they when they shook the country, everything loose rolled west. So I think I was one of those, you know, maybe somewhat loose characters in in Minnesota that said, hey.

Kirk Hanson [00:03:20]:

You know, go west, young man. And, so I I, we we hiked California the PCT in California the next year.

Scott Cowan [00:03:29]:

Mhmm.

Kirk Hanson [00:03:29]:

And then I hitchhiked up to, Washington to check out Evergreen. And as soon as I saw the campus, I’m like, I don’t care what they teach here. This is just beautiful. I I you know, a campus in the woods, that’s my kind of school. And so, you know, I I moved out a year later or so. And and, yeah, Steve. So why why am I still here? You know, when I figured out that you can garden year round in in Washington, you know, unlike Minnesota, I’m like, I’m I’m I’m staying. I mean, there’s, you know, there are characters out here.

Kirk Hanson [00:04:04]:

There’s mountains. I can garden year round. I’m like, I I found my my habitat.

Scott Cowan [00:04:10]:

So you’ve just given me a bunch of questions. I’m sorry. I’ve been a poke fun of Evergreen the whole time. That’s kinda it’s it’s kinda you’re giving me

Kirk Hanson [00:04:17]:

one of those.

Scott Cowan [00:04:18]:

Exactly. 2 things. The first question’s really, you know, put me on the spot, but, for your credibility sake, it’s gonna be hanging here. Are you a Minnesota Vikings fan?

Kirk Hanson [00:04:32]:

So, you know, I did I am not a sports fan, period. Okay. Alright. I did not grow up in a family that either hunted. You know, Minnesota, of course, is one of the, you know, biggest outdoor hunting. You know? Yeah. So we didn’t hunt. We didn’t fish, land at 10,000 lakes.

Kirk Hanson [00:04:45]:

Go figure. Right. And my parents were not into sports. I I could honestly care less.

Scott Cowan [00:04:50]:

Okay. That that hey. Safe answer. That’s all good. Other has it has a little bit to do with what we’re talking about, but tangentially today. So I’m currently a a a a former guest on the show, and I were talking couple days ago, and he he recommended this author that I should read. He goes, yeah. You gotta read this guy.

Scott Cowan [00:05:10]:

And I can’t I can’t pull up his name off the top of my head. But he goes, he wrote this book on mushroom hunters and the and the, kind of the underground market of it. And you said gardening year round, and I’m in this part where they’re out in, you know, on the Olympic Peninsula, and they may or may not be trespassing at this point. You know? And they’re out, you know, gathering 100 of pounds of mushrooms at a time, from somebody’s land. Do you are you a mushroom forager?

Kirk Hanson [00:05:45]:

Yeah. Yeah. You know? Okay. And, actually, I think

Scott Cowan [00:05:47]:

I think book is called

Kirk Hanson [00:05:48]:

The Mushroom Hunters. I’ve I’ve read it. Okay. I I am. Yeah. Literally, you know, coincidentally or not, on this past Saturday, my wife and I were trespassing on state land. I don’t know if you’re trespassing. It’s public land.

Kirk Hanson [00:06:02]:

Right? You know? But, It is. Yes. We’ve got some state land next to our our forest in in Oakville. So we, we hiked through there and found about 3 gallons of of chanterelles. Okay. And then, coincidentally, that same weekend, a friend of mine said, you know, I’ve got all of these kingstrophyria mushrooms coming up out

Scott Cowan [00:06:20]:

of my garden. Do you want some more? So it’s,

Kirk Hanson [00:06:22]:

you know, it’s a weekend of, culinary mycological delights.

Scott Cowan [00:06:27]:

Right. And see and and those are those benefit from from a well managed forest, if you will. There’s there’s benefits here too. And I’m as I’m learning this, you know, I’m a city guy, grew up in Tacoma. And, yes, Mount Rainier’s I’d looked out at Mount Rainier. You know, I’ve I’m very familiar with the west side of the state, but I’ve never been, like you. I don’t hunt. I don’t fish.

Scott Cowan [00:06:53]:

You know? I don’t the hike from my office to my to my dining room, the stairs, that’s enough of a climb for me. I almost need a Sherpa. It’s you know, I’m I’m not an outdoors person, so this whole mushroom foraging thing is fascinating to me. And that I had no idea from the way this guy is describing the book sorry. We’re going off tangent. You know, he’s but he’s describing all these out of work loggers who have, you know, migrated into other interesting ways of making a living, you know, through the years, but it still involves forests. Your family has around approximately 200 acres or so. Just out out of curiosity, do you have many mushrooms on those, in your farms or not I mean, not your farms, your forests?

Kirk Hanson [00:07:38]:

Yeah. No. I’m sometimes people refer to them as tree farms. You know, it’s, anyway Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, wherever there are, forest well, really, I mean, wherever you are, there’s mushrooms, first of all. You know, that that’s just the nature of,

Scott Cowan [00:07:56]:

you

Kirk Hanson [00:07:56]:

know, the realm of mycology. You know, in your backyard, every time you walk outside, you’re breathing in spores. You know, they’re they’re omnipresent. It’s it’s, you know, and if you find them along, need the parking strips, you know, what have you, you know, even in in town. But yeah. Yeah. All across all three of our forests, there’s a rich panoply of of mushrooms. You know? And I I wouldn’t even call myself an amateur mycologist.

Kirk Hanson [00:08:22]:

You know? I I know the ones that are edible, but, you know, they’re I couldn’t even put a number on how many species of mushrooms there are in the northwest. You know, 100, I’m sure, if not 100.

Scott Cowan [00:08:35]:

If if not 1,000. Yeah. If not 1,000. Oh, yeah.

Kirk Hanson [00:08:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I I know the I know the 4 or 5 edible ones are obvious.

Scott Cowan [00:08:44]:

Right. Okay. So you went to Evergreen. Now this is an important question. Did you graduate from Evergreen?

Kirk Hanson [00:08:51]:

I weaned myself off of Evergreen.

Scott Cowan [00:08:57]:

Love it. Okay.

Kirk Hanson [00:08:59]:

No. No. I you know, once I I once I got the the minimum number of credits to get a diploma, I was like, I was out of there. You know? I I knew exactly what I wanted to do. You know? That that’s maybe that’s something that distinguishes me or distinguish me from, you know, my my ever in colleagues is I, you know, I I’ve always had a very strong existential wind in my sails. You know, I’ve had a pretty clear direction of where I’m going. You know, it’s it’s been a meandering path, you know, for for sure, but it’s been in on a relatively, you know, common, consistent, trajectory. And that was true through through Evergreen as well even though I I changed my,

Scott Cowan [00:09:38]:

you know,

Kirk Hanson [00:09:38]:

my my trajectory several times. But, yeah, as soon as I got enough credits to get my diploma so I could at least have a couple initials after my name, I was out of there doing what I wanted to do.

Scott Cowan [00:09:51]:

So what did you grad what did you get a degree in?

Kirk Hanson [00:09:55]:

Well, it’s Evergreen. I you know, they they, you you can kinda well, here’s what I tell people. My my degree is in natural resource management. That’s what I put on my resumes anyway, you know. Hey. Now was that a degree that Evergreen offered? No. You know, it’s, my my emphasis I mean, so I I started out in their ecological agriculture program. I wanna be an organic farmer.

Kirk Hanson [00:10:21]:

You know? And, a lot of my schoolmates went on to either start or take over a lot of the organic farms in the, Olympia area. K. And somewhere, you know, during that that process of learning how to, you know, farm organically at Evergreen, a friend of mine did a presentation on something called permaculture. It might have come up somewhere along the way for it. And I

Scott Cowan [00:10:45]:

thought, alright. This is it.

Kirk Hanson [00:10:46]:

This is what I wanna do. And, so then I Evergreen allows you to do independent study, so you don’t have to go to, you know, specific you can design your own course of curriculum, basically.

Scott Cowan [00:10:58]:

Right. If you you can get

Kirk Hanson [00:10:59]:

a faculty to sponsor you, then, you know, you can do whatever you want. And that was, like, perfect. You know? So I created my own curriculum and self self study, went and intern with people, you know, learning about permaculture and nonprofits and, you know, food production and all of that. And then when I got out of Evergreen, I went and worked at a at a farm, the wild thyme farm, thyme spelled like the herb. Down in in Oakville, a bit south of of Olympia, and started a permaculture program at the farm there. And they had, half, a 100 acres of forest up on their hillside. And so while I was working at the farm, I kinda got back into my roots of, you know, working with the the forest like I did with my family back in the southern. Like, oh my god.

Kirk Hanson [00:11:45]:

It just rekindled, you know, that that passion for being in the woods and working with more complex, you know, forest ecosystems than just farms and and gardens. And that’s that’s what, you know, kind of got me then more solidly on the the forestry trajectory. And then my my wife and I ended up buying our first piece of property right adjacent to the farm just over the hill, while we’re still there.

Scott Cowan [00:12:09]:

Alright. And so now that’s you you have 200 ish acres, which, as I said before we hit record, to me, sounds like a lot. I understand that for as of, you know, forest lands, that’s, you know, that’s like somebody’s, you know, condo sized garden in their patio type thing, you know, statewide. Okay. Alright. So that’s your background. And when did you, what got you to the Northwest Natural Resource Group? What was your what was you know, how do you how did you call this home for a while?

Kirk Hanson [00:12:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, you know, after I I left working on on the farm there, the Walton farm, I got a a job with the State Department of Natural Resources. This is 19 this is in 2000, 1999, 2000. They created a a new program, called the Small Forest Landowner Office. And so it was meant to provide technical regulatory assistance to private small woodland owners and peep people like myself that own, you know, 20, 40, couple 100 acres, you know, the nonindustrial forest owners out there. And so I I worked, with that program for about 6 years. And during that time, you know, I got all over the state.

Kirk Hanson [00:13:24]:

I was I was the public outreach coordinator for that program. So I got all over the state, you know, meeting with small women owners, getting to understand, you know, what the issues were that they were facing, you know, in managing their their small woodlots, and also seeing, like, opportunities for them to be more innovative in their forestry and adding value to their their forest products. And working within a regulatory environment got very constraining very quickly. There’s a lot of things, a lot of opportunities that I saw that I’m like, ah, man. I I wanna help people manage their forest in a ecologically, you know, consistent manner. I wanna help them add value to the you know, and they just I couldn’t really do that within the the DNR. And so a friend of mine said, hey. There’s this nonprofit that you should check out, Northwest Natural Resource Group.

Kirk Hanson [00:14:11]:

And it’d be great if you could join their board and kinda lend your perspective. And I’m like, sounds great. So, join the board of directors. I’m like, yeah. These people are pretty interesting. Got some interesting ideas. And so we we conceptualized this service program for small woodland owners that would emphasize ecological based forestry and value added, you know, product development. We got some grants.

Kirk Hanson [00:14:37]:

They said, you know, we’d like to hire you full time. I’m like, sweet. And so I split, you know, the, comfort and security of, public employment for the uncertain role of the nonprofit sector and, you know, haven’t looked back since.

Scott Cowan [00:14:52]:

And your benefit package in health care has not suffered a bit.

Kirk Hanson [00:14:57]:

It did terribly for, you know oh, man. Yeah. You know, up until about 4 years ago. So you know and I didn’t have a spouse that was working, you know, for the state or the feds or anything. So, you know, when it got time to have a family, we’re like, what are we doing here?

Scott Cowan [00:15:14]:

Oh, yeah. I know. I I have I have lots of when I was when I was working in Olympia, I knew you know? You you know, obviously, if you’re working in Olympia, lots of people work for the for the state or the county. Right? And they’re there because of that that those it’s not the direct pay. It’s the it’s those benefits that are just impossible to find elsewhere. Sure. Alright. So Northwest Natural Resource Group, this is the this is the this is my story, and we’re just gonna work off of it.

Scott Cowan [00:15:43]:

I have a feeling and this is go along with me. You and Seth sat down at a coffee shop in Olympia, and so I’m gonna put you on the spot for my story. What’s a great coffee shop for this to take place in? Let’s just weave that one in right away.

Kirk Hanson [00:16:04]:

Well, I’ll I’ll tell you. I I only go to coffee shops if there’s a meeting to be had.

Scott Cowan [00:16:08]:

Well, that’s fine. You and Seth were having a meeting. So what coffee shop did you go to? Yeah.

Kirk Hanson [00:16:13]:

It was it was probably the the the Baddorf and Bronson, coffee shop down next to the farmer’s market.

Scott Cowan [00:16:19]:

Yeah. The Dancing Goats 1. Yeah.

Kirk Hanson [00:16:20]:

Or Dancing Goats. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, only reason is because it’s easy parking down there. Yeah. No.

Scott Cowan [00:16:25]:

And they’ve got solid coffee. It’s solid coffee. Okay. So It’s alright.

Kirk Hanson [00:16:28]:

It’s alright. Yeah. Alright.

Scott Cowan [00:16:29]:

Alright. So so you you and Seth sat down in the you over over, you know, dancing goats blend, just you know, decided that you guys were gonna coauthor a book. Alright? And I have a copy of the book here in my hands. Beautiful biz. Yeah. Beautiful book. I’m sure it was simple, easy to write. There’s no no no no nothing went, you know, nothing went wrong.

Scott Cowan [00:16:57]:

You guys are both professional writers. You know, the editors didn’t correct anything, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But what was the because when I’m on when I’m on the the organization’s website, you kinda have this this vision, if you will, 5 year, 4 year plan. And this book looks like it kinda comes into phase 3, which is, you know, outreach and education. So what let’s before we talk about the book itself, let’s talk about the brainstorming that you guys who who decided to do the book, and and, seriously, how did it come about? Yeah. Yeah. I I gotta give full credit to to Seth.

Kirk Hanson [00:17:32]:

You know, he he’s the professional writer of the 2 of us. I love writing, but, he’s published in the past. You can look at his names, gets he had several several books behind him, you know, authored articles for, you know, various Northwest magazines, etcetera. So he he’s been through this process before. He he went into it eyes wide open, And it was his idea. You know, he he he came to me and and said, hey. You know, let let’s write a book to get, you know, our knowledge base and our mission out to a much broader audience, you know, more than just the small woodlot owners that we work with, but let’s write something that makes the art and science of ecological forestry accessible

Scott Cowan [00:18:16]:

Mhmm.

Kirk Hanson [00:18:16]:

To any in forest, any forest enthusiast, out there So we can help inform, you know, a a broader discussion about forest management alternatives in the northwest, that we feel is is still very polarized between the lock the gate and walk away, and the maximum resource extraction, you know, on the other side.

Scott Cowan [00:18:42]:

Mhmm. So as as being very naive on the topic, is that really are those two extremes kind of the common positions that they’re that far apart?

Kirk Hanson [00:18:57]:

Well, no, I think it’s a great question. You know? And and speaking a little more contemporarily, I I think in in particular over the past 10 years, we we’ve evolved out of the, you know, the the forest wars, the old the the spotted owl wars and and what have you of, you know, 20 plus years ago. I think the on the conservation side, the the environmental community has come to embrace, active management, you know, as a means for restoring certainly and achieving their conservation objectives, and are, you know, more comfortable with cutting trees, you know, killing trees to save trees. Right. On the industry side, between regulations and public pressure, they definitely, you know, improved their environmental performance. You know? But I think more what what the the lack of knowledge is out there both amongst the public and amongst, again, our focus demographic of private small woodland owners is how do you actually implement something called ecological forestry? You know, what I like to consider the the middle path. You know? Mhmm. That’s striking that balance between conservation and and and, you know, product development or or production.

Kirk Hanson [00:20:21]:

Mhmm. And and that’s that’s been the the evolving science for the past 10 years of of this, you know, this what’s called ecological forest management, EFM. And so that’s what we wanna do embedded in this book and get that, you know, that kind of science and practice out to people.

Scott Cowan [00:20:39]:

Got it. Okay. That makes sense. Now I’m teasing, Seth, if you ever listen to this, you chose to go to Japan instead of sitting down with me today. Just kidding. The 2 of you, how did you divvy up the the the work? Because you got chapters by each of you. What did you what was your strength and expertise that you brought to your chapters?

Kirk Hanson [00:21:01]:

Yeah. Well, I’m I guess I’m more the the the dirt forester. I like you know, you’ve already mentioned, you know, my my family has 200 acres of forest land. I’ve been doing this all my life. Mhmm. You You know, it’s what I do on the weekends. It’s what I do during the week. You know, it’s it’s, it’s kind of a chronic merger, my vocation and that vocation.

Kirk Hanson [00:21:20]:

Right. So, you know, I I I bring that that practical hands on experience. With our organization, I’m usually the person that’s out there, first point of contact with small women owners, you know, relate to them, one of them, you know, what what have you. So that’s the that’s the perspective that I bring, that hands on knowledge. You know, Seth’s background is in policy in, more of, again, the the conservation world. You worked for a watershed organization down in Northern California, during some of the salmon wars, you know, down down there. And so it brings that, you know, that perspective.

Scott Cowan [00:22:05]:

K. One of the things I saw in your book, and I’m probably not gonna get it accurate, so you’re gonna have to correct me, is that the acres that your family owns, the way you’re managing them, in a in a bit in the future, I believe, it’s not as of today, but you’re you’re you’re you’re you’re maintaining the the the the forest to get to this goal, which is approximately I think it was $40,000 of, timber sales, I guess. And that, you know, you’ll you’ll and and then what you pointed out was and that would be an amount that would be, almost like an annuity. It would come out the way the force is being managed. This is this could come out in perpetuity. It’s not like depleting the the the the land. And then you mentioned, that doesn’t count the cost of the work, the the the the the work that you have to do to maintain this. And so what does that look like? What does that work look like? And using your $40,000 number, how much would it cost you on an annual basis to maintain these 200 acres to obtain that, you know, output?

Kirk Hanson [00:23:25]:

Yeah. So let me tease that apart a little bit. The the three tracks of land that that my family has purchased, all have young forests on them. They’re all less than at least, you know, 40 years old. Some are, you know, just recently established, plantations of of trees. So when I talked about the the costs of managing land, it’s it’s sort of the the the cost of restoring these three properties that we purchased to productivity. So there’s this upfront investment to deal with the invasive species, the the the areas that have been taken over by brush, you know, getting trees established back there and up to a a, what do we call, a free to grow, you know, height so they can grow on their own without much management. And once you’ve done that initial upfront kinda restoration work, you know, then it’s just a matter of kinda perpetually thinning your forest going forward, and your investments really, really taper off.

Kirk Hanson [00:24:32]:

Right. And I’m anticipating in in the next 5 to 10 years, our forests will be able to generate, you know, sufficient revenue to pay at a minimum, pay for their own ownership and management costs and then start providing, you know, these dividends back to, our our family. So, you know, yeah, I I put in that that $40,000, you know, kinda annual income. Yeah. If we look at land taxes and, yeah, some of the, you know, inherent management costs, It’s probably gonna be I’m I’m I’m sort of guessing here because this is a little bit in the future yet. But, you know, it’ll be probably 10%, you know, of that, of that of that that net revenue.

Scott Cowan [00:25:21]:

Okay. Alright.

Kirk Hanson [00:25:23]:

So just 4,000 a year.

Scott Cowan [00:25:25]:

So this is not a get rich quick scheme. You know?

Kirk Hanson [00:25:28]:

No. We always call it get rich slow scheme. You know?

Scott Cowan [00:25:30]:

Right. Right.

Kirk Hanson [00:25:31]:

You gotta be in it for other other values. You know? Then but, you know, my so I mean, one thing that I always tell small woodland owners is that, you know, especially those who are like, I don’t wanna cut any trees. You know? I just I

Scott Cowan [00:25:42]:

I wanna, you know, I wanna park. I want it for

Kirk Hanson [00:25:44]:

a while with him. But hey. Look. You know? No matter what, you’re you’re going to incur some costs, you know, in owning that land at a minimum taxes, you know Mhmm. If not some other costs. Why not, when you have a forest that grows in the most productive ecosystem for biomass in the world, why not manage that, you know, for some kind of timber production, timber revenue

Scott Cowan [00:26:13]:

Mhmm.

Kirk Hanson [00:26:14]:

So you don’t have to subsidize it? You know? Okay. You know, and some people are fine with that and they can afford it, but, you know, most of us can’t afford to perpetually subsidize something. And I just philosophically, that rubs me wrong. You know? It I think it’s it’s sort of erroneous thinking that we should just lock the gates and leave forest completely to their own, you know, without any kind of active stewardship. There’s just there’s missed opportunity both in revenue and in a relationship with the land.

Scott Cowan [00:26:47]:

One of the other parts I I I saw was you you seem to like pruning your trees. And there was this this, there was a a graphic on those 3 three three drawings. One of them was an incorrect way of pruning it, you know, pruning a branch. The other was another incorrect way and then a third a third correct way. And then I think there’s a picture. And was that you in the picture, holding a a okay. So you’re out there and you’re pruning these trees up, let’s say, 8 feet. That’s probably a maybe you’re going a little higher.

Scott Cowan [00:27:23]:

What’s the best practice there when you when you’re cutting branches off? What do you do with them? What’s the best practice for for maintaining a forest with just that that debris that you’re I don’t I don’t know how to describe. I’m you know, it but to me, we’ll just call it debris, but it’s gotta serve a there’s gotta be, I think, there’s gotta be benefit from it too.

Kirk Hanson [00:27:42]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I take the path of least effort. I I I cut it when it drops, let it rot.

Scott Cowan [00:27:48]:

Okay.

Kirk Hanson [00:27:48]:

You know? So so there there’s that, you know. But, you know, when I’m I’m kinda doing 2 things at the same time with with my young forests, I’m doing something, you know, that we call in in the industry precommercial thinning. You know? So the the trees are are too small to be commercially viable to to, you know, cut, put on a truck, and and sell.

Scott Cowan [00:28:06]:

Right.

Kirk Hanson [00:28:07]:

So we’re we’re pre commercially thinning. The intent is to reduce competition within the forest. So this is just kinda cutting and dropping, you know, letting, that small tree lay there and rot. And then with the remaining trees that are still standing, yeah, I’m cutting back and I’m pruning them up. It’s it’s mostly an aesthetic thing. I mean, there is some Okay. You know, timber value increase there. You’re producing clear wood, you know, on the trees as the trees continue to grow.

Kirk Hanson [00:28:30]:

But, so, you know, to your to your question about what do you do with that material, I mean, I think kind of a a clever thing that you can do with that is aggregate a lot of that cut material into what we call habitat piles Okay. Or constructed habitat logs. You know, one one of the to me, one of the objectives of ecological forestry is to restore some of the functional characteristics of older forests in our younger forests. And one of the most important missing habitat structures in young forests, are these large downed logs that we find all over the place in old growth forests. And those down logs provide, you know, habitat for hundreds of insects in the Mhmm. The bottom of the food chain, as well as upwards of about, 70 to a 100 species of, of vertebrates. So incredibly important for wildlife. So we can replicate, you know, to a certain degree the functional characteristics of those old growth logs by taking slash and piling it up and piling up the logs and creating, you know, the these habitat structures.

Kirk Hanson [00:29:46]:

So I love doing that. My kids do that. I hire them to do it. You know, it’s a easy, low skill, kinda fun family day in the woods.

Scott Cowan [00:29:54]:

Right.

Kirk Hanson [00:29:55]:

And and then it also you know, rather than having all the slash that’s spread all over the place that could be a fire risk, you know, we’re aggregating it then into these functional structures that then, you know, also, to some degree, reduces fire risk. And

Scott Cowan [00:30:08]:

k. You you mentioned you hire your kids. Are your kids into this? Do they like going because nowadays, like, you know, the common thing is we all think our we all sit in front of our screens, you know, and and and, you know, are they but do they do your kids like getting outside? Does this yes. You’re paying them, but are they are they willing participants in this?

Kirk Hanson [00:30:30]:

When they were younger, they were. So, you know, or or, you know, may maybe somewhat reluctant, somewhat willing participant. Yeah. We’ll go along with pops as doing sure, you know. And and, yeah, being paid certainly helped. You know, now they both have jobs that pay better than I do. So they’re Gotcha. A little a little scarce in the woods.

Kirk Hanson [00:30:51]:

But, you know, I’m I’m proud to say my, you know, my daughter is going on now to, getting into organic farming. We’re working on organic farms. So something something stuck there. Something stuck there. Yeah. Okay. So that’s that’s exciting. And, yeah, and I get to live vicariously.

Kirk Hanson [00:31:07]:

You know, I never went on to pursue my organic farming career, but, you know, geez. So that’s that’s great.

Scott Cowan [00:31:12]:

Well, that’s that’s that’s awesome. Okay. I like this because what you’re doing is, you know, some so, you know, on the surface, you know, it sounds like you’re cutting, you know, you’re cutting branches down, and and and that’s just, you know, what do you do with it? But but it does so those branches and and other debris can be used in a way that you don’t think like, somebody like myself doesn’t think about is the first thought that comes to my mind. So I really that’s that’s awesome. So I do have a question, though. So in in 5 let’s say let’s fast forward to 10 years, and you’re able to start selling timber commercially out of your forest. Right? Mhmm. Are you then gonna go back and and is this gonna be a constant cycle of you you cut you cut a tree down, you plant some new ones, and and this is it’s so it’s if I were to look at the at the a cross section of the the parcel, I would see, you know, trees in various stair step heights, if you will.

Scott Cowan [00:32:18]:

Okay. So if you took a tree down, how many are you gonna what because it’s not one for 1. It’s gotta be many one to many. Right? You’re gonna plant a bunch of seedlings. Correct?

Kirk Hanson [00:32:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. So no. That’s a great question. And, you know, I think you’re really getting at the heart of, I think, the difference between, you know, ecological forestry and and industrial forestry. So, you know, one of the prevalent myths out there is you can’t perpetually thin our forests, that at some point, you have to clear cut, you know, and kinda start over again. And that’s just not the case. You know, you you can perpetually thin our our floor.

Kirk Hanson [00:33:04]:

You know, it’s it’s if if your, you know, primary objectives are again, you know, conservation and restoring habitat and restoring ecological functions, then perpetually thinning to, you know, consistently be growing, you know, bigger, older trees, you know, is a perfectly valid pathway. And so to your question about, you know, planting trees, kinda 2 things. Each time we come in and commercially thin, we’re using fairly conventional logging equipment. So, you know, heavy machinery in the woods. It’s disturbing the soil, you know, exposing, the soil in some places wherever it’s operating, and then we’re opening the canopy of the forest by removing some of the trees. So now sunlight is coming down in, and we’ve got this exposed soil in some places that functions as an ideal seed bed. And so we get natural regeneration of trees in the understory, that just, you know, pop up on their own. No no planting required.

Kirk Hanson [00:34:05]:

Mhmm. They tend to trend towards shade tolerant trees, so cedar, hemlock, grand fir that can grow beneath, you know, the canopy of a forest. Douglas fir, for instance, is only moderately shade tolerant.

Scott Cowan [00:34:21]:

Mhmm.

Kirk Hanson [00:34:21]:

Might regenerate, but doesn’t grow quite as well. So given that, you know, if we do want to have Douglas fir regenerating, we either need to open that canopy a little bit more or cut small patches, you know, up to, like, you know, a minimum of quarter acre in the woods to get more sunlight down in there. Okay. And then the other thing with natural regeneration is it tends to be really inconsistent. You get bunch of seedlings over there, few there, nothing over there.

Scott Cowan [00:34:48]:

You know, so we may come

Kirk Hanson [00:34:49]:

in and augment with some manual planting just to make sure we get both an even distribution and the species that we want, you know, depending on our our objectives. So it’s both, you know, working with nature, and augmenting nature as, you know, as as gardeners, as forest gardeners.

Scott Cowan [00:35:07]:

Earlier on, you mentioned getting the trees to a height where they’re sustainable on their own. I’m gonna guess it varies between species, but approximately, how how tall of a tree is that? What are we talking about?

Kirk Hanson [00:35:22]:

Yeah. Well, you know, most of our competing brush, which is gonna be salmonberry and elderberry, blackberry for that matter, you know, can be anywhere from 4 to 6 feet tall. So we we need to get the trees above that

Scott Cowan [00:35:37]:

k.

Kirk Hanson [00:35:38]:

Before they they really can sustain themselves.

Scott Cowan [00:35:41]:

So So taller than you. You’re walking to

Kirk Hanson [00:35:44]:

you’re kind of the

Scott Cowan [00:35:45]:

measuring stick. You’re the measuring stick. The tree’s taller than you. It’s it should be should be Yeah. Yeah. Air quotes, independent. Okay. Alright.

Scott Cowan [00:35:53]:

Okay. See, this is just I mean, we’re not even really talking about the book specifically, but yet I feel like we’re talking about the the topic in general. How long has the book been out now? Because it’s sometimes I talk to authors prelaunch. I we’ve had some challenges getting you guys you both of you or one of you on the calendar. So the book’s already out, right, as at the time of this recording? Yeah. How has it been received? And have you guys did you and, Seth, have you guys gone out? Have you been doing a lot of, are you taking the book when you’re knocking on doors? Are you doing book book tours? What have what is your publisher having you guys do?

Kirk Hanson [00:36:30]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the some book came out April 1st this year. Okay. And, you know, I did not expect I did not expect to go on book tour, you know, with this is not a book of poetry. You know? It’s it’s not a novel. And I thought, what what the hell are we gonna I’m gonna be reading from this guidebook? Like, that sounds boring.

Scott Cowan [00:36:52]:

Monitoring the aftermath idea.

Kirk Hanson [00:36:55]:

Right. You know? I’m like, oh my god. You’re gonna be kidding me. You know, but, you know, you skim through the book. So, you know, we’ve we’ve obviously woven a lot of personal anecdotes, in there. So, you know, I I was able to lift, you know, a few of those outs have did. And so, you know, our our book presentations have been, you know, a combination of, you know, ecological forestry 101. You know, here’s what it is.

Kirk Hanson [00:37:18]:

You know, here’s our our interpretation of it. And then, you know, for the for the reading portion, you know, reading from some of the anecdotes that we put in there that were a little more, you know, personable and relatable for for people. I it’ll turn out to be a lot of fun. Like, I you know, professionally, I’m I’m an extrovert. I I love speaking in front of groups. I do a lot of workshops and trainings. And the book tour was a blast. You know, privately, I’m I’m an introvert.

Kirk Hanson [00:37:44]:

So I come home and I’m exhausted after all that. So the book tour was yeah. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, we we went to, First Place Books in in Seattle, for instance. Mhmm. Totally different crowd of people that I’m used to talking to. This is not a room full of, people wearing hickory shirts and and Romeos. You know, they don’t look like loggers.

Kirk Hanson [00:38:05]:

Well, they look like loggers, but hipster loggers. You know? Their their Romeos

Scott Cowan [00:38:09]:

are a $1,000 a pair.

Kirk Hanson [00:38:11]:

Totally. Totally. Like, your hair wouldn’t last for 10 minutes in the woods. You know? Yeah. Exactly. But, but, you know, they they were, like, you know, super interested. Like, they they wanted to know what’s what is this forestry alternative. You know? They wanted to inform themselves because clearly, for whatever reason, a lot of different reasons, you know, they were forest enthusiasts.

Kirk Hanson [00:38:35]:

Mhmm. And that’s, again, exactly what we wanted this the kind of audience we wanted this book to get out to. Everybody probably has a forest that’s close to their heart, you know, whether it’s an urban park, you know, or a national forest you go hiking in or whatever. After you read this book, you should have a very different lens to look through when you go out in that that woods and hopefully understand what’s going on a little more. Understand, you know, is it healthy? Is it not? What, you know, what could be done to improve it?

Scott Cowan [00:39:06]:

Well, let’s let’s talk about that in a little detail. Imagine we’re gonna, once again, make up a story. You know, you I’m a real estate agent, and let’s just say I’m considering buying a 50 acre parcel somewhere in Thurston County. Alright? Somewhere out Rochester, Oakville. Oh, that’s Grays Harbor County. But, you know, Thurston, Grays Harbor County. Right? I’m looking out in that area. And I call you up and you you agree to go along with me.

Scott Cowan [00:39:34]:

Like, you’re like, yeah. Come on. I’ll I’ll go romp around the woods for a while. What are you looking for? What are what are the signs of a a healthy forest, or what are some of the common signs of a unhealthy forest that we’re seeing out there in our area?

Kirk Hanson [00:39:49]:

Yeah. Yeah. Boy, there’s a lot of different ways to answer that. You know? And and I I just I realized that I I lazily used the term that I actually hate, and it and it’s health.

Scott Cowan [00:39:59]:

It’s forest

Kirk Hanson [00:40:00]:

health. K. You know? It it it has, you know I mean, it has very anthropogenic, you know, connotations to it. You know?

Scott Cowan [00:40:06]:

K.

Kirk Hanson [00:40:06]:

We we we define forest health, you know, based on a forest’s ability to provide what we want. Okay. Not necessarily is the forest inherently healthy for its own perpetuation. You know? K. 2 2 very different ways of looking at a forest. So but, you know, yeah, that being said, if I’m out with somebody, you know, the first thing I wanna know is what do you what are you looking for? What do you wanna do? You know, is it purely aesthetic? Do you wanna produce timber? Do you wanna improve wildlife habitat? Are you into investing into restoring a forest, or do you want a forest that’s already, you know, older, functional, you know, what have

Scott Cowan [00:40:40]:

you been? I’ll give you I’ll give you my I’ll give you my take to help you out. I I’m looking at this. I kinda liked what you said earlier that you guys have this this upfront investment. And then after after we hit critical mass, if you will, there’s just gonna be this ongoing potential annuity of that will allow the the forest to be sustained. I like that concept. So let’s say that’s what I’m looking for. I’m looking for something that in, say, 10 years, the dividends that it could pay would help me pay for my grandkids’ college. How’s that?

Kirk Hanson [00:41:14]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So the first thing I’m looking at are the soils, you know, and this is something that I I told my mom when when we when we bought our forest near Bokota, she said, oh my god. We’re buying a jungle. You know, this thing is just totally overgrown. There’s brush and blackberry everywhere.

Kirk Hanson [00:41:33]:

And I said, no. Look, mom. You’re a farmer. You came from a farming family. We’re doing what good farmers do, and we’re buying soil. So you’ve got some really productive soils in the northwest, our clay loams, you you know, of the coastal soils. And you’ve got some really kinda unproductive or difficult soils to work with, the glacial till, you know, the droughty, well draining soils. So, you know, if you’re looking at a long term investment where you can sort of maximize the growth of your investment and continue to periodically skim the interest off, you’re looking for good soil.

Kirk Hanson [00:42:12]:

And then it depends on how much you have to invest. You know? If you’ve got a lot, hey. Let’s let’s buy something that within a 10 year window, you can start doing some commercial thinning on. So that would mean you would have to be at least 20 years old. Because usually around 30 years, you can start doing your 1st commercial thinning on these productive soils.

Scott Cowan [00:42:33]:

Okay. So I’m looking so I’m looking for, let’s say, a 50 acre parcel with 20 year old trees on it. Right? In your in your opinion slash experience, is that is that a needle in the haystack? Is that super common? How you know, what’s the likelihood that those those parcels exist in in Thurston or Grays Harbor, let’s just say?

Kirk Hanson [00:42:57]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. They’re they’re definitely out there. The the challenge is is that every one of those parcels has development value attached to it. Like, people aren’t there aren’t that many people that are looking for it just to own forest land. They they wanna put their McMansion on there. And so, you know, you’re looking at spending 5 to $10,000 an acre, you know, for bare land well, not bare land, but undeveloped land.

Scott Cowan [00:43:26]:

Undeveloped land.

Kirk Hanson [00:43:28]:

And then you still gotta build your, you know, your your whatever, your your cabin or your ginormous home on on there.

Scott Cowan [00:43:34]:

Mhmm.

Kirk Hanson [00:43:36]:

So, you know, we we got we got lucky that the the 2 latest properties that that we bought had roads that led into them that crossed adjacent neighbors, and they had put restricted easements on the road access that said access for forest management only. And so that stripped the development value off and dramatically reduced the value of the cost, you know, of those our Bakoda and our Black Diamond Land, which for us was great. Like, you know, these were meant to be long term legacy investments for our family anyway. We’re not planning on building houses on them. So we got them comparatively for a song.

Scott Cowan [00:44:16]:

So what you’re telling me is that well, like, the Pocoto the Pocoto property is basically landlocked, and you have to go through an adjoining parcel where you have an easement. But the the Smiths who own the the adjoining parcel, they put a restrictive easement saying that it’s only for forest service act forest service access. That’s brilliant on their part Yeah. Because if that’s what their goal is, because you’re right. It did it did neutralize a a significant potential for commercial value, I mean, as far as real estate goes. That’s brilliant, though, that that’s that’s a restriction they put on the on the easement. Okay.

Kirk Hanson [00:44:59]:

Yeah. I mean, you know, in in talking with them, they said, hey. We just we don’t want a lot of people coming around. You know? Right. They they they own a couple 100 acres of forest land. Part of it’s Christmas trees. They like the private rural aesthetic.

Scott Cowan [00:45:11]:

Sure. Right.

Kirk Hanson [00:45:12]:

You know?

Scott Cowan [00:45:12]:

And they

Kirk Hanson [00:45:12]:

didn’t want us you know, that that e a 100 acres that we bought there what’s the zoning? Oh, I mean, adjacent to us, it’s been broke up into 5 acre lots. So we could’ve had 20 houses, you know, spread across that. And

Scott Cowan [00:45:28]:

Yeah. Probably probably more like 15, but still, it would have been worth drastically more. Yeah.

Kirk Hanson [00:45:33]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:45:33]:

Drastically. Okay. Interesting. So so one of the tips you’re giving me here is that if I were looking for this, is that and if that and if what I want is what I’m modeling what you you and your family are doing, which is trying to be long term stewards. Right? And I’m looking at it as an annuity to pay, let’s say, my grandkids’ college. Is having a restrictive easement is actually something that I would value because it’s gonna reduce my my expense upfront because I’m not competing with somebody who wants to knock it down and strip it and put 15 houses on that. Okay. I like that.

Scott Cowan [00:46:13]:

Alright. Yeah. What else in the book? What do you think that my audience needs to hear about your book? I’m gonna you know, obviously, we’re gonna tell them to go and get a copy of it where wherever books are sold and all of that. And but before I I’m gonna back up. You said you did this at 1st place. Did you guys go up to Village Books in Bellingham by chance? Yeah. Seth did. I didn’t make it to that one.

Kirk Hanson [00:46:36]:

So we we divided and conquered a little bit. So Right. Right. Yeah. He he was up there. Yep.

Scott Cowan [00:46:41]:

I just see I’ve never been there personally. I just see that it seems like they have authors every single day of the week going up there. So Yeah. The fact that you guys are up there doesn’t surprise me. Where else did you guys do your book tour at? Did did you went down into Oregon? I’m gonna guess.

Kirk Hanson [00:46:59]:

Yeah. Of course, we went to Powell’s. You gotta go to Powell’s.

Scott Cowan [00:47:01]:

So you got a

Kirk Hanson [00:47:03]:

But it was not the mother ship in downtown Portland. You know? That that was, like, kinda my dream. They they’ve got another outlet in, Beaverton. Yeah. That’s Out in the burbs in a in a strip mall, I’m like, no. I guess it’s still Powell’s. I can still say I spoke at Powell’s. But,

Scott Cowan [00:47:16]:

so that’s

Kirk Hanson [00:47:17]:

why I’m saying

Scott Cowan [00:47:18]:

How was it received in Oregon?

Kirk Hanson [00:47:21]:

Oh, yeah. I mean, we you know, there there’s pretty pretty well. Yeah. I you know, we we had comparable audience, and I think at Powell’s as we did some of the places in in in Washington. South did some other he didn’t know, stop down in, Ashland. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:47:37]:

I

Kirk Hanson [00:47:38]:

think may that that may have been it. Just Okay. Beaverton and and Ashland.

Scott Cowan [00:47:42]:

Okay. But that’s, you know I I I I make fun of Oregon all the time on the show, but we’ll be kind to Oregon today. No. I think I’m glad to hear that you you were well received by the audience and there was curiosity. So take me through the book. You’ve targeted it at an audience. Let’s walk us through who you think is somebody who will get value and benefit by reading your book.

Kirk Hanson [00:48:10]:

Yeah. Well, you know, again, I’m I’m hoping that at least 2 different, demographics will obviously, the the small woodlot owner, you know, most small woodland owners that I work with have no background in forestry. You know, they they’ve they’re doing whatever. You know? Who knows? It’s a very diverse community, but, you know, they’re they’re not trained. They’re not familiar with how to manage their forest. You know, they they come to us with a set of values. Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:48:38]:

What a

Kirk Hanson [00:48:38]:

healthy forest. I like wildlife. I want it to be, you know, pretty because I live there.

Scott Cowan [00:48:44]:

Mhmm. You know,

Kirk Hanson [00:48:44]:

these are very kind of general values. And so, you know, my job as a as a consultant is to to listen to these values, you know, then take a look at their forest and help them figure out ways to manage their forest to, you know, achieve their their values. So, you know, my hope that this book then is they can sit down in the evening or read through the book and, you know, quickly, elevate their understanding of what they have. It’ll help them evaluate, you know, what they have and then articulate, you know, a very different management philosophy for their forest. You know, like I said, I I think a lot of people still are in either 1 of 2 camps. Like, I shouldn’t cut a tree, or my only option is to clear cut. And I’m like, no. No.

Kirk Hanson [00:49:31]:

No. No. No. You know, there there’s big spectrum of opportunities in between those two extremes. And so, hopefully, this will help that that small of a number, you know, see that. The other, you know, other demographic again is the non forest building, forest enthusiast, for lack of

Scott Cowan [00:49:47]:

a

Kirk Hanson [00:49:47]:

better term. You know, that is out there, you know, either, again, loving their forest or maybe is involved in the public debate on how forests should be managed. You know, today, there’s this, you know, very contentious movement, the the legacy tree movement. You know, Don’t cut any more older forests. They’re they’re carbon sinks. They’re, you know, they’re ecologically unique. You know? And and so I there’s you know, like anything today that’s politically charged, there’s a lot of misinformation out there. So, hopefully, our book helps people, you know, inform their arguments a little better.

Kirk Hanson [00:50:23]:

And to be honest, you know, convinces the no cut crowd to be like, some cutting, you know, may be beneficial, in these forests.

Scott Cowan [00:50:35]:

One of your things in your bio on the on the Northwest Natural Resource Group is that you’re an adjunct professor at Evergreen. So you you you really you really misspoke earlier when you said you weaned yourself off. You’re you know, you’re still there.

Kirk Hanson [00:50:48]:

I was. I guess, I

Scott Cowan [00:50:49]:

I should update. That was

Kirk Hanson [00:50:50]:

past 10. So I I, yeah. I I I taught a a class on ecological forestry there during, during COVID. Okay. It’s not not an ongoing gig, unfortunately. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:51:03]:

Okay. So you said unfortunately. So you liked doing it?

Kirk Hanson [00:51:06]:

Oh, yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:51:06]:

Yeah. So how did the students how how did the youth I mean, because these kids are gonna be, what, 18 to 22, probably, on average. Right? So these are kids. How did they how did they respond to the course?

Kirk Hanson [00:51:19]:

Yeah. You know, I I gotta admit, I was I was a little a little disappointed. You know, when I was at Evergreen, I was a member of the Evergreen Earth First chapter. You know, we were downtown protesting and, you know, gluing the locks of the Forest Service building shut and, you know, just shenanigans, you know, unproductive shenanigans. And, man, you know, we were at the fire in the belly. We’d argue with anybody just for the sake of arguing, you know. And, you know, so come along, you know, when this is, you know, 4 years ago or so. And I got me a great group of students, you know, for for sure.

Kirk Hanson [00:51:56]:

But I was really hoping for some, like, debate, you know, especially when I started coming, you know, across with the message of you gotta cut trees to save trees. You know? I thought there’d be a, you know, a much more of a, you know, contentious, disagreement there. Maybe I was convincing. I don’t know. But, the, you know, I I mean, the feedback I got was that the the students liked the class because it it did articulate, you know, again, a different way of managing forests than they’ve been exposed to in the past. And, you know, I didn’t do a survey of, like, you know, hey. What what are your opinions about, you know, forestry ahead of it? I should have done that. But, but, you know, my sense was, you know, serving them at the very end, you know, that they they really appreciated, again, this different perspective was very empowering to them to know that, you know, you could essentially garden your forest.

Kirk Hanson [00:52:50]:

You can apply, you know, that kind of gardening stewardship ethic to a forest.

Scott Cowan [00:52:55]:

I really like that phrase, garden your forest. I I really like that. That’s a that’s a I like that phrase. You should, you know, get work on that. Not work on it, but work on getting that phrase out more. I think that’s a a really, a really excellent phrase. Because it for me, it kind of it helps me visualize what you’re saying. I mean, that’s like, I got it.

Scott Cowan [00:53:18]:

You know? Boom. Alright. So this is the part of the show where I always, you know, talk to my guests. We already answered the coffee question, which I you know, full disclosure, I always prep my guests for the first two questions. So the second question is I’m getting to Olympia around lunchtime. Where’s a great place for lunch these days in Olympia?

Kirk Hanson [00:53:36]:

I I guess I’d answer that by the the last place I had lunch. Maccones sandwiches, Maccones subs. Yeah. They’ve got, what, 2 at least 2 outlets now. Super fresh sub sandwiches. Love them. I would say that and then Vic’s Pizza because that’s where my son works.

Scott Cowan [00:53:57]:

Alright. So I gotta we gotta we gotta impact those just a little bit more. So at the sub shop, what are you getting? What’s what’s your go to sub?

Kirk Hanson [00:54:06]:

Just a turkey sub on on a whole wheat, but, don’t hold anything. I like the tomatoes, the onions, you know, just Alright.

Scott Cowan [00:54:12]:

You got it.

Kirk Hanson [00:54:13]:

Works. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:54:14]:

Okay. At Vic’s Pizza, what are you getting?

Kirk Hanson [00:54:16]:

I just like pepperoni. I’d give you an old fashioned slice of pepperoni, and I’m happy. No.

Scott Cowan [00:54:21]:

Nothing wrong with either of those answers. Okay. Before I get you to the big questions, it’s gonna put you on the spot, make you sweat and nervous and all that. What what didn’t we talk about that we should bring up?

Kirk Hanson [00:54:36]:

Well

Scott Cowan [00:54:38]:

because we could go on this this topic could go on forever.

Kirk Hanson [00:54:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I guess the the thing that we haven’t really drilled into is, you know, again, there there’s still, I think, this this entrenched, attitude of the, you know, we we should not be cutting trees. I still bump into people that are like, hey. Look. We’ve screwed things up enough. It’s hubris to think that we can, you know, improve forest ecosystem. We just need to get out of the way, let the forest recover, find alternatives in forest products.

Kirk Hanson [00:55:12]:

I still bump into that. And, Yeah. I I think I’d I’d like to hit that, you know, straight on.

Scott Cowan [00:55:20]:

So one of the things that we is in the book, I think, you is not your chapter, was a comment about forest products, you know, timber to, say, make 2 by fours or to make chairs, right, are less ecologically negative than, say, plastic or metal. I mean, they consume a different different type of energy and all that versus some of these alternatives that we have. And look. There’s how many 1,000,000,000 of us sitting on this planet right now, and and we need shelter. We need food, and we have to consume certain things on this planet to to survive. I’m not saying we should go and cut down every, you know, giant redwood in, you know, Northern California and turn it into patio furniture. I like the idea that you’re describing of gardening your forest and and being, you know, purposeful in our use of these resources. So the idea of not cutting trees doesn’t seem it seems ideologically it doesn’t seem it it’s not sustainable.

Scott Cowan [00:56:32]:

It’s it’s it’s I I I’m not saying they’re I disagree with them. I just it’s not sustainable. We have to have a I think we have to just figure out a a path that navigates both the the the care and conservation, but also the careful consumption.

Kirk Hanson [00:56:52]:

Absolutely.

Scott Cowan [00:56:52]:

Yeah. And I think your book does a a a really interesting job of of of expressing that razor’s edge to walk because I don’t think, you know, I don’t think especially in today’s societal place, having a disagreement isn’t often a casual conversation. It it results in yelling and screaming and, you know, and stomping away. And I that’s not that’s not helpful for anybody. It’s not helpful for the, you know, either party. So I like that you guys are trying to do this. And one thing that we didn’t talk on it that I wanted to was and I’m gonna butcher it, but, you know, butchered everything else on this episode. What about the certification? You’re talking about a certification of of of the timber that you’re selling.

Scott Cowan [00:57:46]:

Correct?

Kirk Hanson [00:57:47]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:57:48]:

So walk me through that because that sounds like a a good way of, to me, conscious consumption of of a renewable resource.

Kirk Hanson [00:58:01]:

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, for those folks that aren’t familiar with it, there is a certification for sustainable forestry that I would say is the corollary in forestry as organic certification is in in farming.

Scott Cowan [00:58:18]:

Okay.

Kirk Hanson [00:58:18]:

So the, you know, the the implication of, you know, organic certified food is that it’s both grown in a more holistic earth friendly manner, and then the food, of course, you know, is is therefore healthier for the the consumer. The the largest environmental certification for forestry is an international certification called Forest Stewardship Council or FSC certification. And it sets this, you know, set creates the set of, forest management standards by which any forest manager, you know, needs to meet in order to qualify for FSE certification. So, you know, and what’s interesting about it is that it’s it’s not just, environmental standards, it’s also social standards and economic standards. You know, the the classic 3 legged stool of sustainability, you know, the environmental, social, and economic. So for again, for a forest owner to to qualify, they have to be, you know, meeting this kind of broad range of of standards. And then the the idea is then you’ve got this ecolabel that you can put on your wood products. So environmentally conscious consumers can go to the lumber store and say, I’d rather have the FSC certified 2 by 4, you know, than the non certified.

Kirk Hanson [00:59:42]:

I don’t know where it came from or what kind of forest, you know, produced it. That that’s the that’s the idea behind it. The challenge is that, you know, a 2 by 4 is not a carrot. You know? It it’s it’s I I don’t think consumers are willing or have been as willing to spend more for a 2 by 4 that they put in their house and hide behind sheetrock than something they put in their body. And so the, you know, the notion that FSC certification would create a premium market, consumers would pay more, and that would trickle down to the landowner to incentivize them to continue to manage to a higher standard hasn’t really played out. So all my family’s lands are FSE certified because, hey, you know, I I own the company. I really should do that, should walk my talk. You know, in the wood products that we have harvested, have we received a premium for any of that? No.

Kirk Hanson [01:00:46]:

No. You know? Mhmm. But no no. Those skin off my back. I mean, we can manage the way I manage anyway, and it’s far exceeds the FSE standards, you know. But, so, you know, where where it becomes just to kind of tie this off, where I think becomes most valuable, is to, like, the public, land owners, land managers. You know, we the the the City of Seattle’s Cedar River watershed, your municipal watershed is FSC certified, a 100000 acres. So they can say to the public, hey.

Kirk Hanson [01:01:18]:

When we go up there to cut timber, we are doing it to the highest environmental standard in the world. And you’re absolutely right. So Okay. There’s that. The, Bull Run Watershed, what’s that? That’s the watershed for, shoot. Is it Portland? It’s down in Oregon. Okay. Carvallo Carvallo, rather.

Kirk Hanson [01:01:40]:

FSE certified. The watershed for the state of Astoria, FSE. You know, I think for them, it makes a lot of sense. A lot of conservation groups, land trusts. Right. Are their force are FSCs. So it gives them public license in essence, you know, to do active management out there.

Scott Cowan [01:01:55]:

Okay. But it doesn’t in in your opinion, at this time, it’s not really translating an economic benefit to a small landowner who’s selling 2 by fours in bulk to you know, or not 2 by fours in bulk, but Yeah. Logs in bulk to be 2 by 4s. What about is there any idea that it would be, that the final product? I mean, like you said, a 2 by 4 is gonna get put in a wall and hidden by drywall. We’re gonna forget all about that. But what if it’s, a wood table or, you know, something like that? Are there are there are there FSC products that are, you know, that are is you know, I I wanna go buy a a dining room set, and I I wanna feel good about the fact that I, you know, just didn’t buy, you know, clear cut timber that, you know, whatever. But is so is that an option in your opinion? Or

Kirk Hanson [01:02:49]:

Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. I go to every it it it’s one of the things I do when I go to the big box stores, you know, is kinda go hunting for FSE products in there. You know? Right. You’ll find some doors that are, you know, made out of FSE wood. You’ll find some dowels that are made out of FSE wood. You know? I think, you know, where I find the the products that you’re talking about, you know, more the the craft kinda items are from the the the small wood shops out there.

Kirk Hanson [01:03:16]:

Like, you know, I I mentioned Wild Time Farm.

Scott Cowan [01:03:20]:

Right.

Kirk Hanson [01:03:20]:

I encourage folks to go to wildtimefarm.com. Again, time spelled like the like the herb. So here’s a small one that needs got 200 acres. He’s got his own sawmill, mills his own trees into lumber, and is selling FSE lumber, and the people that buy that are like the the the, you know, the craft makers and the people that are building this higher end furniture cabinets, you know, what have you, and want you know, the wood that they use is part of their overall story. I’m building this stool that came from local wood, from a forest that is managed, you know, to this exquisite environmental standard. You know, that’s all part of the value of their product. So but, you know, on that kind of small scale, that’s not driving, you know, change in the forest industry. That’s boutique, you know, forestry and and craftsmanship.

Kirk Hanson [01:04:17]:

Valid. It’s certainly valid. But

Scott Cowan [01:04:20]:

Right.

Kirk Hanson [01:04:21]:

You know, we need other, I think, kind of incentives out there to really help shift forest management at a landscape level, you know, if we’re gonna meet some of the, you know, climate change objectives we have, if we’re gonna meet some of the other environmental objectives we have as a society k. You know, etcetera.

Scott Cowan [01:04:41]:

Alright. I’m gonna ask you this the last technical question. It’s not really technical. It’s just specific. So what’s on the horizon for your Northwest Natural Resource Group? What do you guys what do you what what are you looking at in 2025 and beyond? What’s kind of on the horizon for you?

Kirk Hanson [01:04:59]:

Yeah. Well, this is this is kinda cool. So and and a little unusual, I think, for a small nonprofit. You know, one of the the challenges that we have so, you know, we we do a ecologically based timber harvesting, and it’s increasingly hard to find logging contractors that thin. Plenty plenty plenty of contractors, you know, clear cut, but that thin, it’s and it’s just harder to find loggers to begin with. You know, it’s kind of a dying industry out there. So we are in the process of buying our own logging equipment, and, we’re gonna be buying some very high-tech kinda European made, you know, low ground impact, logging equipment. And then we’re gonna run a logger training program, to train up that next generation of logger in the skills necessary to do, you know, low impact, ecologically based, thinning, of forests.

Kirk Hanson [01:05:53]:

Yeah. And I think that’s super exciting. You know, it’s it’s one it’s it’s it was a vision of Seth again, our executive director, to brilliant human being. He’s like, hey. Look. You know, we need to make change in the world, and we’re gonna tackle it, you know, one obstacle at a time. This year, we’ll be buying the logging equipment. We have a vision for buying our own sawmill and getting a little more horizontally integrated.

Kirk Hanson [01:06:17]:

So we now can, you know, process our own timber Right. Into value added lumber, FSC certified lumber. We address that kind of supply chain issue out there. And so Okay.

Scott Cowan [01:06:30]:

Alright. So here’s that dreaded question. I already think I know your answer, and I’m not gonna tell you what it is because I would give the question away. But I will be honest and tell you if I was right. K? Okay. There it is. Very simple question, but you have to answer it, and you have to give your reason why. Alright?

Kirk Hanson [01:06:48]:

Alright.

Scott Cowan [01:06:49]:

Cake or pie, and why?

Kirk Hanson [01:06:58]:

Oh, golly. Well, I you know, the it it just immediately, I was gonna say pie. Just immediately came in And that’s

Scott Cowan [01:07:05]:

what I thought you were gonna say. Seriously. Just because you were an organic gardening guy, I thought he’s gonna say pike. He’s gonna

Kirk Hanson [01:07:12]:

That’s exactly why. Like, you know, because I could put my own berries, you know, my own fruits. I’ve I’ve been looking out at, you know, a fig tree. I’ve got pears and apples and plums and, yeah, I forage for berries and

Scott Cowan [01:07:25]:

Yeah.

Kirk Hanson [01:07:26]:

Make pies out of all I’m a terrible crust maker.

Scott Cowan [01:07:29]:

Okay. That’s alright. So I and that’s I thought you know, I got to think it’s like he’s gonna be pie. Even even if he likes cake more, he’s gonna say pie just because of that whole, you know Yeah. Right. Readily available versus, you know, you didn’t say you owned a wheat farm somewhere that you’re milling your own wheat You’re right. For flour. Okay.

Scott Cowan [01:07:47]:

Right. So intpie

Kirk Hanson [01:07:49]:

That’s neat.

Scott Cowan [01:07:49]:

What what type of pie? What’s the what’s the Well, I’m trying to think of

Kirk Hanson [01:07:55]:

the yeah. The last one that I made, I’d I I’ve made cherry pie. You know, I’ve got this old mock morenti pie cherry that’s, in our yard, and so I always you know, every year, I’m out there harvesting that and, loves making, and got rhubarb, so, you know, the cherry rhubarb pie.

Scott Cowan [01:08:12]:

See, nobody said cherry rhubarb yet. Everyone says strawberry rhubarb.

Kirk Hanson [01:08:17]:

Cherry rhubarb.

Scott Cowan [01:08:18]:

I like that. That’s okay.

Kirk Hanson [01:08:20]:

Well, you know, it’s because the the the pine cherry, you know, is tart, and it’s a tart cherry. Rhubarb obviously is.

Scott Cowan [01:08:24]:

Yeah.

Kirk Hanson [01:08:25]:

So the the 2 kinda go together, and you just throw, you know, a little bit of sugar in there and,

Scott Cowan [01:08:29]:

you know,

Kirk Hanson [01:08:30]:

take takes care of both. Takes care

Scott Cowan [01:08:32]:

I like that. Alright. Okay. See, I told you it was a you know, it could be a really easy question, or some people are like, oh my god. I I have to pick one of my children. I can and but, also, the thing that’s funny is when people are there’s this other segment of the audience that is like, it’s pie, and you are wrong, and fight me. I mean, it’s like they are just so adamant that it’s like,

Kirk Hanson [01:08:54]:

the other shouldn’t exist. And it’s just it’s

Scott Cowan [01:08:57]:

such a simple, fun question.

Kirk Hanson [01:08:58]:

I can’t imagine. They have that bad, man.

Scott Cowan [01:09:00]:

I just

Kirk Hanson [01:09:01]:

Jeez. I’ll eat either.

Scott Cowan [01:09:03]:

Yeah. Exactly. And but, you know, some people are just, like, you know, fully in camp cake and, you know, and some people are, you know, in camp pies. Yeah. In our show notes, we’re gonna put links to the Northwest National Resource Group. We’re gonna put link to your book. We’ll also put the link to the wild the the wild time, because you asked us to. I think that’s, you know, just because you have a connection there, and it sounds like it’s the audience, if they’re interested in this, they’re gonna be interested in that.

Scott Cowan [01:09:30]:

Kirk, thanks for taking the time to sit down with me today. I, like I told you before we hit record, I was I was reading the book, and I I had this flashback to college. Not because it’s a difficult book to read, but because it was a concept that I I haven’t thought about. So I was starting to think, and I was, like, getting getting kind of I wasn’t just turning the pages. I was actually stopping and, you know, thinking and absorbing. And I so I didn’t get through the book. But and but I will. I and you because you guys cover a a we haven’t we’ve done a I think we’ve done justice to the broad strokes of the book, but we haven’t gotten very granular.

Scott Cowan [01:10:06]:

And I think a reader will find great value in the book. Do you have any plans for another book? Do you do you now that you’ve done this, do you wanna do another book?

Kirk Hanson [01:10:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. It was it was really fascinating for me, fascinating process of of writing the book. And and to me, the next logical, one is to really drill in more to the DIY aspects of small women’s management. You know, there’s there’s a few books I’ve seen out there, some, you know, forest managers from Europe, small women owners in Europe, you know, producing you know, they’re kind of bringing the concepts of permaculture, you know, to to forestry, to small women’s management. And I love to do that because every day that I’m working my woods, I’m like, yeah. And this thing that I’m doing right here would be great, you know, to train other people or share with other people, you know, just a lot of experience, coming out of that.

Kirk Hanson [01:10:57]:

And so that that’s what I’m I’m looking at next is is is that book for the DIY small with the I know how to mill your own lumber, just the basic act of planting a tree, felling techniques, you know, for different trees and different ages and stand you know, things like that.

Scott Cowan [01:11:15]:

Okay. Excellent. Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you for being on, and, continued effort, please, on education for us on this topic.

Kirk Hanson [01:11:27]:

Yeah. Right on, Scott. Great conversation. Really enjoyed it. Appreciate the time with you.

Scott Cowan [01:11:31]:

Hope you enjoyed the show. You can reach me on Twitter at explore law state. I’d love to hear your comments. You can also visit our website at explore washingtonstate.com. If you know anyone who would like the show, it’d be amazing to share the show with them. This is the biggest way that we grow this show. Good old word-of-mouth. Glad you were here with me today, and I hope to have you listening to the next episode.

Scott Cowan [01:11:55]:

See you then.