Kate Evans:Cosmic Crisp® A True Washington State Story

Meet Kate Evans, a professor of horticulture at Washington State University campus in Wenatchee. Kate oversaw the development of the cosmic crisp apple, you’ll learn more about apples in this episode than you could ever possibly imagine. Kate Evans is an experienced apple and pear breeder. She is known internationally for her research in plant molecular biology and tree fruit breeding.

In this episode, you will learn the following: 

1. What process does a plant breeder use to create new varieties? 

2. How did Cosmic Crisp become one of the most popular apples in the US? 

3. What methods were used to come up with the name ‘Cosmic Crisp’?

Kate EVans Cosmic Crisp Apple Episode Transcript

Hello, friends, and welcome to the Exploring Washington State podcast. My name is Scott Cowan, and I’m host of the show. Each episode, I have a conversation with an interesting guest who is living in or from Washington State. These are casual conversations with real and interesting people. I think you’re gonna like the show. So let’s jump right in with today’s guest. Alright. I’m sitting here today with Kate Evans, a professor of horticulture at WSU in Wenatche. And we are sitting in a conference room on the campus here of the Tree Fruit Research And Extension Center. Kate, welcome.

Kate Evans [00:00:40]:

Thank you very much.

Scott Cowan [00:00:41]:

Thank you for taking the time to do this. Today, our conversation’s gonna be about apples and probably the cosmic crisp. Okay. But before we go there, your accent, I can’t tell. Is it East Wenatchee or Winatchee?

Kate Evans [00:01:01]:

Oh, I’d say maybe a little more East Winatchee.

Scott Cowan [00:01:06]:

Where did you grow up?

Kate Evans [00:01:09]:

Yeah. I’m English.

Scott Cowan [00:01:11]:

Never guess. I would know. A lot

Kate Evans [00:01:13]:

of people say Australian. So it’s like, oh, no. Not again. No. I’m English.

Scott Cowan [00:01:17]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:01:18]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:01:18]:

And where in in the UK Is that the is that I always get confused. Is is the UK the official term that we’re supposed to use? England? I don’t know.

Kate Evans [00:01:27]:

You can use whatever you choose because I’m if I were Scottish and you said England, then that would be not appropriate. But England, UK, Great Britain,

Scott Cowan [00:01:37]:

all fine. So where did you grow up?

Kate Evans [00:01:39]:

I grew up in a city called Sheffield, which is slap bang in the middle of England. it a very industrial city famous for its stainless steel production and the film, The FallMonte.

Scott Cowan [00:01:54]:

Okay. And where did you go where did you go to school at?

Kate Evans [00:01:59]:

I I moved about thirty miles north to a a another industrial city called Leeds, and did a degree in, plant biology and genetics. So a sort of double major, always loved plants, and it was a sort of perfect fit for me.

Scott Cowan [00:02:19]:

Okay. So wanna ask you to go back to your youth. Okay. So here in the USB joke about, you know, in the in the backyard, we’re playing, you know, cowboys and Indians or whatever. So when you were a little kid, What did you wanna do?

Kate Evans [00:02:32]:

You know, I always knew that I wanted to do science. k. Always interested in science, always interested in biology, for a long time, it was, oh, to become a doctor, right? That’s what everybody did. you were interested in biology, if you were good in school, and whatever. but kinda when I hit the point of thinking about going to college. I suddenly thought, you know, I’m really squeamish. I’m not good at the sight of blood. this would not be a good fit for me. And then I thought, actually, I I kind of prefer plants. So I I moved in that direction.

Scott Cowan [00:03:10]:

moved in that direction. Okay. Cowan then as we’re sitting here today, you’re all about apples. Mhmm. So when did apples come into the equation.

Kate Evans [00:03:23]:

Yeah. Really good question. It was something that I had never expected to do. I mean, growing up where I grew up, very industrial, a fairly bleak climate because we’re sort of up in the in the pennines, which is the sort of the higher elevation region that runs north south in in the UK, no freak production but I I moved, to do a graduate degree, PhD in plant molecular biology. So I moved sort of further north — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:03:55]:

—

Kate Evans [00:03:55]:

to a a city called Durham, very old university Cowan, and enjoyed doing that, but it was very lab based very sort of, you know, working with DNA and test tubes and all that kind of stuff. And and I I I got my PhD, so they’re, you know, got my doctorate, but it made me realize I I didn’t want a job where I worked in a lab all the time. It was just you know, that was too too restrictive. I wanted to have an opportunity where I I was outside a bit as well. Cowan literally just saw a job advert for an apple and pear breeder. And I kind of figured, well, I’ll I’ll apply because it sounds interesting. I knew nothing about apples and pears. I knew a little bit about plant breeding. but I knew quite a lot about plants from a genetics perspective, which is what fits into breeding.

Scott Cowan [00:04:58]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:04:59]:

I applied and, bizarrely, they gave me the job. So it was a it was a job in a, a research institute that called East Malling, East Malling Research, or it’s had various names over the years, but it is the sort of primary horticulture research institute in in England, and is very famous for its Apple research.

Scott Cowan [00:05:25]:

What was some of for example because if if you haven’t seen in in my eyes are kinda cross eyed and glazing over here because wow. Okay. But what were some, for example, like, Job duties. What, like, your 1st year on the job? What were they having you do? Like, what sort of tasks?

Kate Evans [00:05:46]:

you know, a lot of the jobs that I am still doing today.

Scott Cowan [00:05:50]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:05:52]:

a lot of what you do as a plant breeder is we’re we’re making crosses. So we’re pollinating, so making controlled crosses to collect seeds, growing those seeds up and evaluating that material. So whether that evaluating it for, a disease resistance or susceptibility or insect resistance or susceptibility. And then ultimately, of course, when when that plant, that tree has grown up and it’s producing fruit, evaluating the fruit for for quality, eating quality and storage quality.

Scott Cowan [00:06:33]:

So this takes a number of This isn’t this isn’t just a a month long project. This is a a a number of years. Okay. Did you ever work with Paris just because you mentioned okay.

Kate Evans [00:06:44]:

Yes. Yes. I in my UK job, but he’s smalling, I I also was breeding pairs, that the Cowan part, the fruiting part of the pear tree, but also the rootstocks for for pears. So apple trees and pear trees are what we call composite plants. So each of them is made up of, a sort of, a fusion of 2 different varieties. So the root stock, the bit that’s in the ground, and maybe about 6 inches above ground, that’s one variety that was — especially selected for its, for for its routing and its vigor control and maybe a few other elements. And then the sort of the fruiting part, which is technically called the scion, and that’s those are the dessert varieties that you you know, I mean, in terms of all the variety names.

Scott Cowan [00:07:41]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:07:41]:

So all those every tree that’s out there in commercial production is is a a composite made of those two parts fused together.

Scott Cowan [00:07:51]:

When you’re fusing these 2 entities together, Are there ones that don’t work well? Mhmm. Okay.

Kate Evans [00:08:00]:

Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:08:00]:

Yes. In with broad stroke, why? why why wouldn’t, you know, x work with y?

Kate Evans [00:08:05]:

Just — Do you know that’s still a big black box in terms of — Okay. — research?

Scott Cowan [00:08:10]:

Okay. Yeah. But but there’s some, and I’m just making this up. a red delicious apple won’t work with some other mid, you know, in certain made up name here.

Kate Evans [00:08:21]:

Certainly. And and it it yeah. I mean, there’s it’s it’s an incompatibility is what it’s called between the root stock in the Cowan. Mhmm. And there are certain combinations that that don’t work together. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:08:37]:

Well, we’re still in the UK. Yes. I mean, it makes perfect sense. The UK to winache. mean, it’s just it’s a common it I mean, the flights here

Kate Evans [00:08:47]:

No. How right?

Scott Cowan [00:08:48]:

How how how did you end up at what was from the UK to Wenatchee, was this was that a direct stop for you? Did you go from there to the Washington State University, or did you have another any other stops before you ended up here at WSU?

Kate Evans [00:09:04]:

No. I came straight here. It was Okay. so I worked at at least morning in that breeding program for 16 years. So it was it was a a relatively decent chunk of my career.

Scott Cowan [00:09:16]:

Yes.

Kate Evans [00:09:18]:

doing — genetic research as well as breeding. So but all of that in apples and pears. and then I really wasn’t looking to move. It was just, you know

Scott Cowan [00:09:30]:

Wenatchee wasn’t on your on your top 10 list.

Kate Evans [00:09:32]:

It really wasn’t. You know? And, I I actually went to a conference in Spain, a fruit reading conference, We’re Internationally a fairly small community, you know, in terms of, tree fruit and apples, pears, you know, we kinda know the other programs around the world and you get to know the other breeders. and I happen to be on the on the bus trip, as you do in the conference, sitting next to, Janara Fazio, who is an apple rootstock breeder, in the US. He’s based in Cornell, Geneva, New Cowan. and, he said to me, hey, Kate, you know, Bruce Barrett, retiring out of the the WSU program, you should apply. And I went, well, yeah, maybe, And that kind of started me thinking, well, if I apply, there’s a very strong probability that they will invite me for an interview because I mean, at that point, I was pretty well experienced, well published and sort of known internationally. And, and I thought, wait, I’ve never been to Washington State. And and that would be a great experience because if you work in apples, this is one of those places that you really should visit. and so I did. I applied for the job and they invited me over and rest is history.

Scott Cowan [00:11:08]:

Rest is history. So when you came over, Do they have you go to pullman, or do they have you come here to this campus?

Kate Evans [00:11:15]:

Oh, I had I had it all. Believe me. It was the interview schedule that everybody would love to have. They flew me into pullman, straight from England, and I think I had 2 nights in Paulman, I was then driven to Prossa because WSU has another research and extension center there. Irrigated ag, and there’s a quite tree fruit presence there. I think I had 1 or 2 nights there, and then they drove me here to Wenatchee, and yeah, I had a couple of nights here as well, and then flew home from here. So it was a fairly intense process.

Scott Cowan [00:11:54]:

What time of year was this?

Kate Evans [00:11:56]:

It was April.

Scott Cowan [00:11:57]:

Oh, okay. Yeah. So they they scheduled this. I mean, they — They did. They they were they manipulated. Let’s just be honest.

Kate Evans [00:12:02]:

They did. Best time of the

Scott Cowan [00:12:03]:

did they mention winter here to you? They they

Kate Evans [00:12:07]:

did mention winter, but, you know, winter is important for tree fruit. We need to have chill. If we don’t have enough chill hours, we don’t get fruitbud, and there are no apples.

Scott Cowan [00:12:20]:

I warned you, we’d go off. So I have a question for you. My my my wife has been complaining that this year, we didn’t have fall. We still have leaves on the trees and all that. unusual. It seems like an unusual seasonal change this year. Summer smoke winter is kinda how it felt. Is that an impact to this year’s crop and potentially, or are are apple trees? Because they we certainly have cold.

Kate Evans [00:12:46]:

Yeah. I’m not I have to hold my hand up. I’m not, you know, I’m not a physiologist, but, from what I am aware, it that fact shouldn’t be impacting our sort of fruit button production.

Scott Cowan [00:13:00]:

It was just because the the seasons have been a little off.

Kate Evans [00:13:03]:

Well, all of last year was a little weird. Oh, yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:13:06]:

Well, yes. Okay. So you you interviewed? Mhmm. you got to see the bustling towns of Pulman Prosser in Winache. Did did they ever did you ever go to Seattle?

Kate Evans [00:13:19]:

not well, only the airport.

Scott Cowan [00:13:21]:

Just the airport? Yes. Okay. So okay. So that you got to see the Eastern Washington. Mhmm. Alright. Obviously, we’re sitting here so we know that that we know how this turned out. How long How long did it take? When did okay. If you if you interviewed in April, when did you move here?

Kate Evans [00:13:40]:

October.

Scott Cowan [00:13:41]:

Okay. Another good month to be here.

Kate Evans [00:13:43]:

Mhmm. Wow. When you work in apples, yes. Yes. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:13:47]:

The cosmic crisp was under development at that time. and you took over the project. Right. That seems complicated.

Kate Evans [00:13:59]:

Yes. I I guess when you look at it from the outside, it it does. I mean, I I’d also stepped into a breeding program in the UK and taken over that one.

Scott Cowan [00:14:09]:

Oh, okay.

Kate Evans [00:14:09]:

When you work in in tree fruit breeding, It it is a long term deal. so it’s it’s really is beneficial to come in as a breeder to a program that’s established because you’re inheriting material at at every stage, and you can make progress a little faster, obviously, than if you’re starting from scratch. And This program, WSU, was only started in 1994. Bruce Barrett started it, from scratch. so, you know, compared to other Apple breeding programs across the states, it’s it it is quite young.

Scott Cowan [00:14:51]:

Oh, it is? Yeah. Okay. Can you kind of walk us through so Let me see. I’m grasping all this. So we’re we’re testing various root stock with scions to ensure kind of compatibility and you’re you’re you’re trying to breed for a desired output. Mhmm. Right? And my super layman’s view of this was that this apple was the desire was maybe to replace a another well known Apple Characteristics and offer some other advantages. One of them being it holds well. Correct.

Kate Evans [00:15:34]:

It stores well. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:15:36]:

Okay. So you’re testing these things, and some of you wanna see the fruit and all that. So And I didn’t realize this, and I I live a mile and a half from here. There’s an archer here. So were you actually were the were some of the tests actually conducted here?

Kate Evans [00:15:54]:

So the the way the breeding program works, and and, yeah, may maybe it’s it’s better to sort of backtrack into that bit first. So so every year, we make new cross combinations. So that means that we are, as as breeders, we’re thinking about Okay. What what do we want in a new variety? and which combination of 2 parents would do we think would give us the best probability of getting what we want in a new variety?

Scott Cowan [00:16:34]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:16:34]:

So then that’s that simple, just sexual reproduction in apple. It’s just that we’re controlling it because we’re putting the pollen of the one parent that we want onto the flower of other. Right. Okay. Waiting for fruit, getting the seeds out, and each one of those seeds is has the same 2 parents. Mhmm. But they’re genetically different. So they’ve got a sort of mix of of genes, a bit like the easiest way to think about it is if like humans, okay, you know, you look at a family and in many families, you’ve got the same 2 parents. Right. You you might have a handful of kids. Mhmm. Each of those kids is a result of those 2 parents But they’re different.

Scott Cowan [00:17:16]:

Great.

Kate Evans [00:17:17]:

Right?

Scott Cowan [00:17:17]:

Right.

Kate Evans [00:17:17]:

And so as breeders, what we do is we exploit those differences, we we then we make lots and lots of seeds. Mhmm. Plant them out and patiently over, you know, once they they start to fruit, which might be 5 or 6 years down the line, then we we select. And so breeding is all about using that that mixing up of genes and then selecting doing rounds of selection to find the best ones all the time. So we do a a round of selection when the trees are about eight years old after we’ve looked at fruit for a few years. Mhmm. Then we propagate, make more copies of the best individuals, which we can do vegetatively. So we’re just we’re taking a bud. Uh-huh. Sticking it onto a root stock, making a new tree, and we can make replicate trees.

Scott Cowan [00:18:12]:

Right.

Kate Evans [00:18:13]:

Then we do more evaluation on those, and we do we do another round as well. So all the time, what we’re doing We start off with, say, in any one year, 10,000 seeds.

Scott Cowan [00:18:25]:

Right.

Kate Evans [00:18:26]:

and we’re over a period of about 15 to 18 years, we’re we’re reducing the number of individuals down, selecting the better ones, and doing more, increasing the number of replicates of each of those individuals and doing more evaluation until we find the best individual that we can then make a decision on to release. So that’s kind of what happened to the cosmic crisp apple.

Scott Cowan [00:19:00]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:19:01]:

Where was that done?

Scott Cowan [00:19:02]:

Right. It

Kate Evans [00:19:03]:

was Back to your original questions.

Scott Cowan [00:19:06]:

No. No. No. No. No. This is this is this is amazing. This is great.

Kate Evans [00:19:08]:

The the ceiling, the original seed was germinated here at the center in in Winache

Scott Cowan [00:19:15]:

— Mhmm. —

Kate Evans [00:19:15]:

in the greenhouse. k. It then went to the nursery, got propagated up to make a tree and was planted in one of our we have 2 research orchids, that are linked to this research and extension center. One of them is up towards Arondeau.

Scott Cowan [00:19:34]:

Mhmm. The

Kate Evans [00:19:34]:

other one is on the way to the Palisades. Okay. But the it was planted along with that that seedling was planted along with several 1000 others,

Scott Cowan [00:19:46]:

k.

Kate Evans [00:19:46]:

In the in the Orchard Niro Rondo.

Scott Cowan [00:19:50]:

Alright. So but that’s one one environmental area. Did did did you try before going to market, did you, like, say anything in Prosser?

Kate Evans [00:19:59]:

Yes. So, yes. So so as part of that, our first first round of selection, when we’ve got our thousands of different individuals, we only have one tree of each individual. They’re all different. Mhmm. That’s one environment. That’s the the orchard. Mhmm. When we have our when we’ve made selections, For our next round of testing, we plant in 3 different sites. We have one that is up, high elevation site near Lakeshelan, one that’s in Wenatchee and then one that is is down, the process. Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:20:39]:

So once you started that process — Mhmm. — how long was it before it was released to growers? Like, how what’s the timeline there?

Kate Evans [00:20:52]:

So the original cross was made in 1997 — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:20:57]:

—

Kate Evans [00:20:57]:

produced the seed that then was was germinated in

Scott Cowan [00:21:01]:

98.

Kate Evans [00:21:03]:

first trees went out to growers in 2017. So it was a full 20 years. but at that point, we I would, in in my opinion, I think we had more data about that particular, new variety than pretty much any other new variety at that point, of of release. So it had it had been fairly well evaluated by, sort of a whole load of different people, sort of independent views, not just my opinion. Right. Hey, it’s a great apple. You should plant it. You know? independent views. we worked a lot with the Washington Tree Fruit Research Commission. who did some independent evaluation for us. Mhmm. And, you know, then put it out there and and, we were it’s just being fabulous, the amount of grower interest that we’ve had in terms of planting.

Scott Cowan [00:22:05]:

So one thing I read was that at first, I think it would be safe to say the demand outstripped capacity.

Kate Evans [00:22:12]:

Absolutely. Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:22:13]:

And you almost had, I don’t wanna call it a lottery, but kind of a — A drawing. — a drawing. Okay. So that’s that’s interesting. So that was in 2017. The

Kate Evans [00:22:23]:

well, the drawing was prior to that to to distribute those trees for 2017. So

Scott Cowan [00:22:30]:

in 2017, now this is maybe not your expertise, but I I have a feeling you have information here far more than I do. So in 2017, the trees are beginning to be distributed to the the growers that have been chosen to, grow this first this first. Version. I don’t know. Version Health. Right. Okay. And that’s only Washington state. Correct. In in the United States, it’s only Washington State growers. And that’s for how long?

Kate Evans [00:22:56]:

it’s a 10 year commitment at the moment. We hope that we will be able to continue to to keep at Washington State in the US. Really? Certainly for for a while longer.

Scott Cowan [00:23:08]:

Okay. Which is awesome for Washington State Girls. That’s that’s very cool. So these these trees are then taken to their various orchards that they’re going to across across across the state. Did you have involvement personally from, you know, this point? Because they’re

Kate Evans [00:23:24]:

not obviously, they’re being planted, but they’re not producing fruit right away. So what involvement, if any, did you have during that phase? Oh, yeah. Good question. you know, not not really that much because once it’s got to the point of release, the the breeder and the breeding program, the You you’re done. Right? You’ve done your evaluation. You’ve chosen the one that you think is the best. You’ve provided then input in terms of lots of data on evaluation. I guess for me, it was it’s been more about my involvement about talking about the apple discussing sort of and participating in discussions about naming and,

Scott Cowan [00:24:10]:

brand development

Kate Evans [00:24:10]:

and licensing and the the sort of more commercial aspects, in terms of the the research that has continued to go into producing cosmic risk, That is really where my colleagues here and and in 1 or

Scott Cowan [00:24:30]:

2

Kate Evans [00:24:30]:

of the other places, other RNA centers. have really stepped up because it’s their expertise then that’s needed.

Scott Cowan [00:24:37]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:24:38]:

Sort of Orchard and production systems, you know, the best as you, you know, the best root stock to put it on, the best way to train a tree, what, you know, what shape — Right.

Scott Cowan [00:24:48]:

—

Kate Evans [00:24:48]:

is a is a good way. How do you prune it to get good yield.

Scott Cowan [00:24:53]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:24:53]:

How do you when to harvest it, when how to store it

Scott Cowan [00:24:57]:

— Right. —

Kate Evans [00:24:58]:

to get the best quality fruit that you can. So, you know, here we we’re lucky enough to have experts in all of that. and they’ve all participated and continue to participate.

Scott Cowan [00:25:10]:

So you’re you were kind of at that point more in the marketing and in Right. Okay. Here’s a random question for you. Do you remember where you were when you saw the first cosmic Chris Apple in the public as far as, like, at a store.

Kate Evans [00:25:29]:

Really good question. I think it was it was the safe way in Wenatchee on, on 5th.

Scott Cowan [00:25:39]:

Okay. So what was that like?

Kate Evans [00:25:42]:

It’s just it’s incredible. I mean, just, you know, I think I stood there and took a photo.

Scott Cowan [00:25:48]:

I bet you did.

Kate Evans [00:25:49]:

And I’m still the person who they probably hate me in that store, but they have a a little stand, kind of post thing with a a kind of poster on the top that is always by their Apple Cowan. And on one side, it has multiple pictures of multiple varieties and a few words about them. And on the other side, it’s it’s the cosmic crisp, big picture of cosmic crisp. And I’m always the person that turns it around, so the cosmic crisp pictures out.

Scott Cowan [00:26:21]:

I like that. Yeah. I can’t imagine after working on the project for so long to then see it come to market.

Kate Evans [00:26:32]:

It is it is a it’s a great, you know, what what I think drives all of us as breeders is to is to get your product out into in into the consumer’s hands, you know, and that is the wonderful thing. It’s not It’s particularly, I think when you work with a fresh fruit product, I mean, we win hands down, right? It’s a healthy product. You want people to eat it. You want people to eat more of it. And eating more of it is helping your health. Right? So

Scott Cowan [00:27:04]:

It’s a win win.

Kate Evans [00:27:05]:

It’s a win win. It really is. Yeah. I’ve had wonderful conversations with consumers. I mean, I had a great interaction with somebody the first time I saw it in Costco. Oh, okay. And this this lady was kind of standing there looking at the cosmic crisp, and sort of debating about, obviously, whether to pick up that box of fruit or not.

Scott Cowan [00:27:28]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:27:28]:

And I I I think I kind of said, oh, have you tried that one yet? And she went, no. Have you? So I said, yeah. Yeah. I I think you should have a go. It’s really good to go. It’s nice and crisp and juicy and And it

Scott Cowan [00:27:43]:

was and she picked up

Kate Evans [00:27:44]:

this box and she put it in her cart. And I thought, yes.

Scott Cowan [00:27:47]:

I love it. So the Apple’s official name is WA38?

Kate Evans [00:27:53]:

It is. Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:27:55]:

Why? Why? Why? What is I mean, I think I I have an ID. I can may I speculate — Absolutely. — WA for Washington. And this was the 38th variety of an apple that had been maybe patented?

Kate Evans [00:28:10]:

kind of. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:28:12]:

Well, Bruce and I — Did I at least get the wall right?

Kate Evans [00:28:13]:

Well, kind of.

Scott Cowan [00:28:14]:

Oh, geez.

Kate Evans [00:28:15]:

Bruce and I kinda go backwards and a little bit, is it WA for Washington, or is it WA for Washington Apple, right? So either. And and we’ve never really Okay. That’s WA. That’s

Scott Cowan [00:28:27]:

fine. Alright. WA.

Kate Evans [00:28:28]:

38 was because it was the 38th selection to move into the 2nd phase in the breeding program. Yeah. So — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:28:38]:

—

Kate Evans [00:28:38]:

no other reason.

Scott Cowan [00:28:39]:

Alright. So is that within your community.

Kate Evans [00:28:44]:

Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:28:44]:

It’s WA 38. The tree,

Kate Evans [00:28:49]:

and its patent name is WA

Scott Cowan [00:28:51]:

38. Okay. Yeah. To the consumer, we know it as the cosmic crisp.

Kate Evans [00:28:55]:

Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:28:57]:

How did we come to that name?

Kate Evans [00:29:01]:

Yeah. Good question. we had so many attempts to name this apple, and, really got some interesting input from various different naming companies in Seattle and and, you know, it was Yeah. It was a it was a fascinating experience having the discussions, but we ended up not really being very impressed with the suggestions that they came up with. And so, I have a fabulous colleague based in Paulman in the School of Food Science Doctor Caroline Ross, and she had helped with apple tastings, sensory assessment, and various aspects like that. And she was willing to do some consumer focus groups for us about naming. I was like, oh, fabulous. And she, she ran several of these focus groups with a whole sort of different groups of consumers, she did Yakima, she did a couple in Seattle, various different places, and we obviously gave them some fruit, and she threw names or words around, and she got them to throw words around. And I I was invited to a couple just as a sort of, you know, fly on the wall. really interesting. The the sort of the cosmic element came from a lady fairly early on who said she’s looking at the fruit, and the all apples have what are called lentasels. They’re they’re like sort of pores in the skin. Mhmm. and on the cosmic crisp apple, they were they’re sort of whiter than many, but also be they show up quite well because the the sort of the ready ready background just makes them sort of pop a little. And this lady said, oh, they remind me of stars in the cosmos. k. Okay. So okay. So then throwing around words, cosmic kind of came up.

Scott Cowan [00:31:03]:

Right.

Kate Evans [00:31:04]:

It’s a crisp apple. I mean, it is a super crisp apple. One thing that really stands out about that apple is is is its texture. And so It just, yeah, sort of throwing the words around it. It fitted really nicely together, and and there you go.

Scott Cowan [00:31:21]:

Now you’re oversimplifying it. Be and the reason I say that is because I can imagine that the decision to name it was analyzed and sweated over by a team. So it wasn’t just like, that’s it. Let’s go and move on to the next part. So I’m gonna guess that it was, you know It it took it. Well, it it

Kate Evans [00:31:43]:

had more discussion than maybe I’ve kind of alluded to, but, you know, but those words came together fairly early on in this process. and we then, of course, had to think about, okay, well, cosmic has got various different sort of, you know, there’s the kind of, sixties kind of right on cosmic sort of, you know, and then there’s different ways to also think of the cosmos cosmic. Mhmm. we threw around sort of ideas, early ideas. I think we’re of of promotion material were sort of more along the Jetsons and that sort of, you know

Scott Cowan [00:32:24]:

—

Kate Evans [00:32:24]:

k. — which didn’t really fit all that well in my opinion, but but then, the sort of the the the artistic views that have come up with more of that sort of starry cosmos.

Scott Cowan [00:32:38]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:32:38]:

Actually, I think worked really well, and I was just really pleased with the the final product. in terms of how it came out.

Scott Cowan [00:32:47]:

When you when you release the name, do the growers have anything to say about it? Did they care?

Kate Evans [00:32:53]:

oh, oh, they care. Yes. They absolutely care, but, and it’s had very mixed responses. And and it did with Bruce and myself as well, neither of us were sort of, yes, cosmic crisp, you know, we it it’s taken a while to kind of grow on us, but, We’ve we’ve had, I mean, ultimately, I would say we’ve had more positive responses to that name than negative, and people remember it, which is

Scott Cowan [00:33:19]:

that’s important. It’s very important. It needs to be a memorable name. Okay. Alright. So cosmic crisp. Well, one thing I I’ve read, and when we we unfortunately, we’re gonna get out of back we’re gonna go backwards again. What were the 2 varieties of apples that were kind of The parents. The parents.

Kate Evans [00:33:43]:

Yeah. Yeah. The mother was enterprise, which is a an apple that’s never really kinda made it commercially. It’s a it’s an American apple. It comes from a program that was run by Purdue Rutgers And Illinois Universities. Okay. cosmic crisp looks very much like its mother.

Scott Cowan [00:34:02]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:34:03]:

And then Honeycrisp was the the the, paternal parent, the pollen parent.

Scott Cowan [00:34:09]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:34:10]:

most people are aware of Honeycrisp now. That all for crisp texture

Scott Cowan [00:34:13]:

— Mhmm. —

Kate Evans [00:34:14]:

was was what we were looking for.

Scott Cowan [00:34:16]:

What would have happened if we would have reversed it?

Kate Evans [00:34:19]:

good question. You know, we We don’t know very much, fundamentally about the the maternal or paternal influence in terms of which way around you make that cross combination. And Many times now when I’m making crosses and and it’s I’m sure Bruce was the same. We’d we’d do the crosses both directions. And because of the way that the the genes are sought anyway, it’s very difficult to to really get in there and tease apart if there’s a difference between the direction of the cross.

Scott Cowan [00:35:02]:

So so Bruce was the originator here.

Kate Evans [00:35:04]:

Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:35:06]:

What was he going for? What was the goal of this in his when he started?

Kate Evans [00:35:11]:

Yeah. The goal ultimately is is to get better fruit for the consumer, to to have, new improved varieties for Washington State Production. So bear in mind that, you know, here in Washington State, we’re producing at least 60% of the US crop. Okay. So, I mean, major players in in the country. But the varieties that were being grown in Washington state had not been selected for the climate that we’re in. for the growing conditions of Washington State. They came from all over the world.

Scott Cowan [00:35:47]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:35:48]:

So it made a lot of sense to have a program that was based here where we were selecting varieties that were selected in our conditions, our environments.

Scott Cowan [00:35:59]:

Right.

Kate Evans [00:36:00]:

So that was that was one element. It was apples that would grow well here. apples that are a a good range of improved quality for consumers because, ultimately, they’re the point where the money comes into the chain. Absolutely. Right. and then also To produce varieties that would be available for Washington Growers. So from a that’s a sort of a slightly weird one, but most apple varieties, certainly in the nineties, which is when the breeding program started. And and actually, as we continue through to today, most varieties are released from the breeding program to the industry in a in a a sort of controlled, exclusive license way to a limited number of growers, perhaps a sort of a particular warehouse or whatever, you know, they have to pay up front to have that license. Okay. the the view, Bruce’s view at that point, and I and it still is out there today is that, you know, there are growers out there who who have never really had access to these exclusive licenses. They haven’t been able to afford them. they they so therefore, they have not had the opportunity to plant a new improved varieties. It makes a lot of sense. Washington State University were a land grant university. We’re here to support the the growers of the state. And and so our varieties are out there and available for Washington state growers. So I think that is also partly why we had this big uptake, an interest and demand for the cosmic crisp apple because there were growers there who had not had the opportunity to to have access to a new variety for a long time.

Scott Cowan [00:37:48]:

Okay. Yeah. because when I look at a a grower’s website, I see, you know, I see Granny Smith. Mhmm. They don’t X Y Z Orchard doesn’t own the name Granny Smith. So X Y Z Orchard’s Granny Smith to the consumers the same as ABC Orchard. I mean, this is the way I look at it. I don’t know if I go to my local Safeway, I don’t know which grower grew this apple. So I can see how it could benefit that they get a chance to to invest in this new new the market fruit, hopefully, capitalizing on interest and in enthusiasm and all of that versus competing for an old not old, but, you know, of traditional, to me, a traditional apple name.

Kate Evans [00:38:28]:

Right.

Scott Cowan [00:38:29]:

And I see other names I’ve I haven’t heard of before, that are, like, interesting to me. Okay. How do I let’s see. How do we wanna do this? How are where do I wanna go here? So Let me ask you this question. Now I’m gonna ask you your your opinion. So there’s no right or wrong answer. It’s your opinion. Are you pleased with the progress that the Apple is making for the grower and all the way to the consumer?

Kate Evans [00:38:58]:

Yes. I think it’s it’s a it’s a very, very difficult thing to launch an Apple variety brand new Apple variety and to and and to measure its success. Mhmm. How do you measure its success? That is you know, it’s it’s a challenge. Right?

Scott Cowan [00:39:21]:

Well, I mean, I would think, I mean, what little I know, I would think one way is does it sell at retail? Okay. That’s that’s one measure. But, like, for the growers, is it a is it a good tree to grow? Is it a easy? Is it how is it to harvest? is it pest resistant, all of these things? Because if it’s finicky, even if it’s great, a great product, it it’s harder for the grower. Okay. So overall, this tree has performed as anticipated on a scale that we’re at now?

Kate Evans [00:39:52]:

It is certainly a tree that takes some input from the growers. It it is not the easiest to tree to grow. Okay. However, what I would say is that we, I think as a university, as my my expert colleagues, have provided and continue to provide some fabulous guidance in terms of best practices for you know, how to plant it where to plant it, what rootstock, how to prune it, how to manage it. You know, that’s because every tree is different. Every variety is They all have their little nuances, you know, and when we look at varieties, for example, Granny Smith, as you as you mentioned, that one, you know, when you’ve had a variety that’s been out there for an awful long time, so much is known about it. Right.

Scott Cowan [00:40:40]:

You

Kate Evans [00:40:41]:

know, when you put a new one out there, and it’s and it’s and it’s also planted in a in a in a different site with a different microclimate. There are always going to be things that that appear that are sort of, oh, I’ve never seen that before. Hey. Well, what a surprise, you know, but I think with the continued research and the continued support that that we’re providing, then, you know, hopefully, the the growers are are still pleased with it.

Scott Cowan [00:41:09]:

So one thing When I think well, I’ve changed 1, I think now. But when I when I moved over here to Wenatchee, when I thought of an apple tree, I thought of the old apple tree, big trunk, you know, branches and overhanging and, you know, and that’s not a that’s not a commercial apple tree anymore. That’s these are they don’t look like trees to me. They look like walls in some cases. And there’s a I’ve I’ve been learning there. There’s reasons why we’re doing this. It’s more efficient. They they fruit faster. Correct? the cosmic crisp from being planted to commercial viability. how long is that typically? What are we looking at?

Kate Evans [00:41:54]:

You you mean until Like,

Scott Cowan [00:41:55]:

if I planted if I was a if I owned an orchard and then, I planted in 2020 3, a 1000 trees. how long would it be would I should I anticipate that I would be able to get a commercial volume of products. Is that like a 3, 5 year window?

Kate Evans [00:42:13]:

That that’s a really difficult question to answer. I mean, usually, by the 2nd year, there’d be a reasonable crop on those trees.

Scott Cowan [00:42:22]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:42:23]:

But it totally depends on, how those trees have been managed in the Orchard situation. You know, I mean, you talked about a fruiting wall. It it is actually called a fruiting wall, the sort of much more two dimensional tree. there are a lot of benefits to that. It’s it has a a very, even canopy

Scott Cowan [00:42:45]:

—

Kate Evans [00:42:46]:

Mhmm. — which means that the light interception through the canopy is very even, which means that you get much more consistent fruit.

Scott Cowan [00:42:53]:

Right. Okay.

Kate Evans [00:42:54]:

When you think of those big old trees that you mentioned where you’ve got a very dense canopy. The fruit in the middle is gonna be not getting anything like the sort of light that the fruit around the edges

Scott Cowan [00:43:06]:

— Never thought of that. But it’s obvious when you say it, but I never thought of

Kate Evans [00:43:09]:

that. Right. And so you get a hugely variable fruit, when when you harvest, but but you’ll also get fruit sort of, perhaps say, it’ll be a slower, that would be a slower production system to actually get, a sort of a a reasonable commercial yield because, you’d be planting the trees much further apart. then if you’re planting in a fruiting wall. So that sort of high density planting, you you would start to to get a reasonable crop within of 2 to

Scott Cowan [00:43:44]:

3 years. In 2, 3 years. Okay. So that’s a faster turnaround for the grower than the old school thing. A while ago, early on in the podcast, we had a conversation with a with a, a cider maker out of Shalan. Right. And he made a comment in passing. And I’m gonna ask don’t know that you’ll know the answer, but I’m gonna ask you the question. Approximately, how many trees per acre are being planted because the number he told me, I think might no. I I I I understand that I’m asking you for one size fits all answer. but the number that he told me made my jaw drop. And so I’m just curious. To your it doesn’t have to be just a cosmic crisp. But in general, what would you say is a a reasonable number to say per acre with this new fruit walls and or not Yeah.

Kate Evans [00:44:35]:

Yeah. I mean, again, there there isn’t a one size fits all, but,

Scott Cowan [00:44:40]:

1400

Kate Evans [00:44:41]:

trees an acre. I mean, very high density. you know, there are different ways for for growers to manage this. And there are systems now, which you probably don’t notice when you’re in the Orchard, but there are ways to have, instead of a a a single tree, just being literally just a sort a column,

Scott Cowan [00:45:02]:

you know,

Kate Evans [00:45:03]:

with a few branches, there are ways to train that tree where you have 2 leaders. So 2 sort of main stems coming up from one trunk.

Scott Cowan [00:45:12]:

From one root stock.

Kate Evans [00:45:13]:

Yeah. With then sort of fruiting branches on either side of it. And if you have a vigorous variety team. Mhmm. You can you can do that. And obviously, that will halve the number of trees that you need per acre. And and, you know, you’ve gotta think about from a grower investment, they’re paying per tree.

Scott Cowan [00:45:28]:

Oh, absolutely.

Kate Evans [00:45:29]:

You know? So so to put in 1400 trees Cowan acre, it it’s a big investment for grow.

Scott Cowan [00:45:34]:

Yeah. No. But I was shocked at that number. Yeah. The number, I think he said a 1000. Yeah. So I was just like, I just couldn’t wrap my brain around it at first. I mean, 1400’s even larger, and I’m but as I drive around as you know, as you drive around and you see Orchard, you kind of dig if you pay attention, you go, oh, really? But that’s amazing. I mean, and you’re right. 1400 trees, and added up, you know, plus the the land cost, the labor cost, all these things impact

Kate Evans [00:46:06]:

Right.

Scott Cowan [00:46:07]:

Impact growers directly. Okay.

Kate Evans [00:46:09]:

I think, you know, labor, you can just kind of say it quick, but

Scott Cowan [00:46:12]:

—

Kate Evans [00:46:13]:

Oh. — my goodness. I mean, it’s it’s the biggest impact that there is. you know, and a lot of these new fruiting war systems are have been developed really to to try to reduce labor costs So, yeah, there’s there’s sort of a lot of detailed, tree training, goes on, but Harvest is the biggest issue. We’re still picking that fruit by hand.

Scott Cowan [00:46:36]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:46:37]:

And so, you know, if you have that nice fruiting wall system, you also can have, a a harvest platform going through the field. You can have people harvesting sort of, not going up and down on ladders. they’re safer. Mhmm. And they’ve got easy, very easy reach fruit to just be able to harvest. And and really that is one of the biggest dilemmas for the growers, how to get the fruit off the tree and into the warehouse.

Scott Cowan [00:47:03]:

Right. Okay. This project took 20 years. Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:47:08]:

Yep.

Scott Cowan [00:47:10]:

He retired. You took over.

Kate Evans [00:47:13]:

Yep.

Scott Cowan [00:47:15]:

That’s kind of a signature career move. I mean, it’s it’s the signature of a career, isn’t it, that you played this role in bringing this this variety to to marketplace.

Kate Evans [00:47:30]:

Yes. I mean, I I hope I’ve I’ve released other varieties. I’ve released varieties in the UK.

Scott Cowan [00:47:36]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:47:36]:

I am a expecting that there will be more varieties that come out from this program. It’s it is I think it’s yes. It took 20 years from the seed to get to then have trees out for growers. But, you know, you you have to kind of view this and we always think about this as a breeding program. It’s like a conveyor belt. So every year, we’re making new crosses. Every year, we’re making selections, and it sort of moves forward all the time. So

Scott Cowan [00:48:05]:

So, like, a pipeline, if you will. Okay. Pipeline. What would you I I don’t know how you may not answer this question. That’s okay. what would you like to see happen in your career now?

Kate Evans [00:48:19]:

Oh, well, I think for me, my aim has always be been to to put out, sort of opportunities, different opportunities for consumers, of of different, different flavor profiles, different texture profiles, that It’s always I think it’s the thing that, for me, is the most interesting about working with Apple specifically. is that as consumers have such widely different preferences, you know, if you if you work in Blueberry, and my Blueberry breeding colleagues will probably hate me for saying this, you know, I mean, the it’s it’s a blueberry. Right? you know, consumers go buy a blueberry, and the blueberry is a blueberry. You you probably don’t know different variety names. Are there? Oh, no. You look

Scott Cowan [00:49:14]:

at Apple.

Kate Evans [00:49:14]:

Right. And and consumers are are so used to the fact that, oh, well, you know, there are green ones, there are yellow ones, there are red ones, there are bicolored, there are different, there are crisp ones, there are firm ones, there are sweet ones, chart ones. Right? And people have their different preferences. So how wonderful as a breeder, to be able to address this plethora of different, different preference combinations.

Scott Cowan [00:49:42]:

Right. Where do you fall? What’s what’s, you know, this is like asking you who’s your favorite child. But, from a profile standpoint, are you where do you where do you, like, What do you like in an apple?

Kate Evans [00:49:55]:

Yeah. That that is a really difficult question for me to answer because, my my stockpile answer is I will usually say, oh, it’s going to be the next release. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:50:07]:

Fair enough. Well played. Well played. So that’s an interest. Okay. So are you you get to sample all these how many apples do you eat in a not necessarily eat, but how many apples are you sampling annually? Oh,

Kate Evans [00:50:25]:

annually, I was gonna say, well, this morning, I sample

Scott Cowan [00:50:28]:

63.

Kate Evans [00:50:28]:

What? Tomorrow, we have at least that many to go through in the lab.

Scott Cowan [00:50:33]:

Okay. So how does so how does one sample 63 apples in a morning? What walk us through that’s Okay. I used to work at Starbucks and we would cut coffee and, you know, you’d sip it and spit it out. You know, you you could go through a lot. You’re not like drinking although I always was disappointed. We didn’t get to drink all that coffee. But, you know, that’s how they test that. But how does one — Yeah. — test 63 apple. Yeah. You, we, we have them out in

Kate Evans [00:51:00]:

the lab. my team and myself will just go through independently, and we we all have our little spit pot, or large spit pot in some cases. and and you you taste and and we have a sort of little ratio thing.

Scott Cowan [00:51:20]:

Taking a bite out of an apple, handing it to your colleague. So how No. Not anymore.

Kate Evans [00:51:24]:

No. No. Post COVID. I mean, we we did. We used to not to hand it. I mean, we would have 5 apples of each selection out there. And then you you kind of just bite in a different place to your colleagues kind of thing. You know, post COVID, we’re a little more careful and we we have a sort of protocol set up where we have, Again, well, still sort of 5 apples of each selection, but 2 of them, we slice and put in little pots with a lid, and then we we have a a clean hand and a dirty hand and you open the lid with with the dirty hand and you have a sort of skewer to

Scott Cowan [00:52:03]:

—

Kate Evans [00:52:04]:

Right. take out your slice and close the thing up again. So, and then taste the slice. So

Scott Cowan [00:52:11]:

So are you taking notes with each Yeah.

Kate Evans [00:52:14]:

We we actually we we went away from taking notes. We have a sort of, like, a electronic, score sheets

Scott Cowan [00:52:22]:

—

Kate Evans [00:52:23]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:52:23]:

—

Kate Evans [00:52:23]:

kind of thing. and we so we we have a rating system set up for different appearance characteristics, and taste characteristics, texture characteristics, and then a sort of an overall score and a comment section. So we all just rate on our individual tablets.

Scott Cowan [00:52:42]:

Walk me through an example. What as best you can. You’ve you’ve skewered a a slice of apple. You’ve you’ve tasted it. walk walk me through maybe something from this morning that’s maybe fresh in your mind. Walk because this is interesting to me. So what what examples Cowan you share that you you’re grading this for? Like, appearance, you’re looking at skin color and and Right. And, for lack of you know, a uniform look if that’s what we’re going for?

Kate Evans [00:53:09]:

Yeah. We we, we we obviously take images of them all. So we we don’t have to rate the appearance — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:53:16]:

—

Kate Evans [00:53:16]:

that accurately, but but we we rate, on size and shape. color. So the amount of over color, so red or pink and color of the background, the amount of russet. So the sort of you know, the sort of brown rough, skin finish, how how prominent to the lentice cells, those sort of pause on the surface. we we rate, whether there are any defects

Scott Cowan [00:53:49]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:53:50]:

And then we we will rate from a, a a taste perspective, we will rate a firmness Christmas and juiciness all separately because they’re all quite different.

Scott Cowan [00:54:04]:

Mhmm.

Kate Evans [00:54:05]:

and then tartness, sweetness, and aroma.

Scott Cowan [00:54:09]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:54:10]:

And then we do a a a very simplistic kind of overall appearance, and then, overall eating quality. And, a

Scott Cowan [00:54:20]:

1, 2, 3.

Kate Evans [00:54:21]:

Is it a ones of reject? 2’s look again. 3 is advanced.

Scott Cowan [00:54:25]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:54:25]:

And then comments, just free comments.

Scott Cowan [00:54:28]:

And so you tested 63 apples today. Mhmm. Yes. How long did that take?

Kate Evans [00:54:36]:

I mean It it was, I was on a some of those were on a reduced testing. Okay. but it probably took a couple of hours.

Scott Cowan [00:54:45]:

And how many days a week or month are you doing test tastings like this?

Kate Evans [00:54:51]:

We, at the moment, will do, around about 50 to 60 apples on a Wednesday and on a Thursday. and we’ll do so just those

Scott Cowan [00:55:03]:

2

Kate Evans [00:55:03]:

days, we’ll do that from

Scott Cowan [00:55:08]:

realized that works out to about 5000 apples in a year.

Kate Evans [00:55:11]:

I know. Yeah. Because we’re not just we’re not just harvesting. We we do different pick date.

Scott Cowan [00:55:16]:

Uh-huh.

Kate Evans [00:55:17]:

We have different sites. So we we have samples from those. We have, storage, So fruit that’s been stored for 2 months and then sitting out in the lab for a week, just at room temperature to simulate sort of you know, home. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:55:34]:

Right.

Kate Evans [00:55:34]:

And then we also taste again after 4 months of storage and a week and so some of those are a bit ropy.

Scott Cowan [00:55:44]:

So earlier you maybe before we hit rolling, you mentioned you had children. Uh-huh. Yes. Do you kids like apples, or did you burn them out?

Kate Evans [00:55:56]:

yeah. Good question. they don’t You know, the ones that have left home, have got more into eating apples, I think,

Scott Cowan [00:56:03]:

than,

Kate Evans [00:56:04]:

than the ones that are at home. They were great for some of those nice sort of, early publicity shots of, you know, kids of young ages with a big apple in their mouth and a smile on their face.

Scott Cowan [00:56:20]:

Let me ask you this. So typically or I’ll ask you this question. When you’re not at work in breeding apples, What do you like to do for relaxation and fun in the area?

Kate Evans [00:56:35]:

I love the theater.

Scott Cowan [00:56:37]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:56:37]:

And so I I I found that when actually is just fabulous for the theater, particularly musical theater, So I try and go and see everything that I can at the theater. and I sing. I sing with Columbia Corral. so, we do our sort of 3 concepts a year. Alright. My other fun singing thing is I I also try and do the Lake Schelland Barkfest every year — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:57:05]:

—

Kate Evans [00:57:05]:

and sing with the chorus. So

Scott Cowan [00:57:07]:

Alright. So I was waiting for you to see you’re growing apples at Home Knox kidding.

Kate Evans [00:57:11]:

Definitely not.

Scott Cowan [00:57:12]:

Do you so do you have any apple trees at home? No. No. They’re like, that’s too much.

Kate Evans [00:57:17]:

Yes.

Scott Cowan [00:57:17]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [00:57:23]:

I have 2 blue art trees.

Scott Cowan [00:57:25]:

Okay. Alright. What’s your favorite season here in the in the Winache Valley?

Kate Evans [00:57:31]:

Oh, really good question. I think it would have to be, spring, which I think is most people’s favorite time here, you know, that for me, spring’s a busy time for work because we’re obviously dealing a lot with bloom. Mhmm. but it doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate it. I think it’s it’s just a great time for weather and beautiful.

Scott Cowan [00:57:54]:

Well, that’s that’s interesting. Alright. So that brings me in. So seasonally here with your job, what if we from a high level overview, what what are this the if we have 4 seasons earlier, we’re I was joking that we don’t. But if we have, you know, spring summer fall and winter, what’s what’s your focus in each of those major seasons at from a work perspective?

Kate Evans [00:58:14]:

Yeah. Spring, spring is bloom and so we’re crossing. We’re doing lots of pollination. so so that’s that Cowan be fairly intense. moving into summer is summer actually for the breeding program is kind of the if you like the quieter time, it’s mostly Orchard maintenance, late summer we start harvest and, I guess, into fall. So we’re very much focused on on harvesting fruit and then starting evaluation of that of those fruit samples, we carry on doing evaluation all the way through usually into February. So that’s that’s kind of winter. and then we’ll start we we start sort of late winter early spring with planting new trees. So I guess that’s our our cycle.

Scott Cowan [00:59:11]:

That’s kind of your cycle. Alright. And here on this campus, how many people are involved in in your program?

Kate Evans [00:59:21]:

Really good question. I have,

Scott Cowan [00:59:25]:

33

Kate Evans [00:59:26]:

technicians,

Scott Cowan [00:59:28]:

1,

Kate Evans [00:59:30]:

graduate student at the moment and, a, research professor as well. So, 5 plus me.

Scott Cowan [00:59:39]:

And are you teaching courses?

Kate Evans [00:59:41]:

I teach in the spring. So this semester, I I teach, I co teacher research orientation and presentation class.

Scott Cowan [00:59:50]:

And are those students here on this campus? Are you teaching them at from remote from pullman?

Kate Evans [00:59:54]:

Or Yeah. Our the department of horticulture is spread right across the state of Washington. So, in this this semester’s class, I have one student in Paulman. I’ve got a couple in Mount Vernon, 3 here, one in Prossa. sometimes we’ll also have we we have department members in Puyallup, and also Tri Cities. so we can we can cover all of those. So — Okay. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [01:00:25]:

This could go on for a long time. So I’m gonna ask you stock questions. I always ask people about their communities. Now it’s gonna be interesting because we you and I share the same community. stereotypically, England likes tea. But are you a coffee drinker?

Kate Evans [01:00:43]:

I’m a coffee drinker. I don’t drink tea at all.

Scott Cowan [01:00:47]:

See there. Okay. Where do you go for coffee in the area?

Kate Evans [01:00:53]:

I I don’t. I’m I’m afraid. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [01:00:56]:

That’s okay.

Kate Evans [01:00:56]:

I tend to, prefer a friend or Italian roast.

Scott Cowan [01:01:01]:

Do you have a roaster that you’re currently

Kate Evans [01:01:04]:

No. No. I I’m in the process of try I I’ve sort of go on and off in terms of, whether, I mean, my sort of European taste for coffee are a little bit different to American Coffee, and, I’m I struggle sometimes to find something that fits my palate.

Scott Cowan [01:01:21]:

So what’s your if if I forced you to go out for a cup of coffee or or coffee beverage, what would you order? Would you just order, like, a pour over coffee or black coffee, or you’re gonna order a latte?

Kate Evans [01:01:33]:

I mean — No. I probably wouldn’t actually go for an Americano — Okay. — black.

Scott Cowan [01:01:38]:

black as it should be. I mean, just okay. you say you’re European pallet, so you like Dark. Dark. Smooth. Mhmm. and you haven’t you haven’t you so do you okay. Here you are tasting all these apples. Do you kinda take that scientific approach to other foods?

Kate Evans [01:01:59]:

Really, not to the same kind of, point, but, Yeah. I I, you know, I mean, I appreciate, I appreciate good ingredients

Scott Cowan [01:02:11]:

— Mhmm. —

Kate Evans [01:02:12]:

my food.

Scott Cowan [01:02:12]:

Yeah. So with coffee, you you like a darker smooth. So you’re not a big fan of this light roasted.

Kate Evans [01:02:19]:

No.

Scott Cowan [01:02:23]:

kind of the contemporary thing that’s going on in American Coffee Roasting. And that’s okay. You’re you’re amongst friends. it’s okay. Alright. Another question I always ask, my guess, and this is this is the easy version of the question. It’s like, so where’s a great place to grab lunch in Wenatchee?

Kate Evans [01:02:41]:

Oh, I’m I’m English. So India house

Scott Cowan [01:02:46]:

I have never eaten an India house. So let me ask you this question because you said you’re English and you you made this happy face about India house. How’s India house compare to back home.

Kate Evans [01:02:59]:

Oh, you know?

Scott Cowan [01:03:00]:

And that might not be a fair comparison, but I’m just curious.

Kate Evans [01:03:03]:

Well, I mean, that’s it is a very difficult question because, you know, it it is, I think, chicken tikka masala is the national dish of England now. Mhmm. And so, you know, we are very, very, dedicated consumers of of

Scott Cowan [01:03:18]:

Indian cuisine, India house is really good.

Kate Evans [01:03:18]:

Okay. And I would recommend anybody to try their lunchtime buffet if you are not if you’ve not tried Indian food before, it’s a great way to

Scott Cowan [01:03:31]:

To to

Kate Evans [01:03:32]:

try it. I just

Scott Cowan [01:03:32]:

haven’t tried that restaurant. Okay. cosmic crystal apple, what does it pair well with?

Kate Evans [01:03:38]:

Oh, many, many things, but, as a coug,

Scott Cowan [01:03:43]:

I’d This was not planned. It should’ve been thought through of it, not planned.

Kate Evans [01:03:48]:

Kuga gold cheese? I mean, apples and cheese. are a fabulous combination.

Scott Cowan [01:03:52]:

Absolutely.

Kate Evans [01:03:53]:

And and we did actually for the, was it I think it was taste Wenatchee at Cowan Toyota, or I forget if that was the name of it, but it was mostly wine and and ciders, but we we did a a cosmic crisps band and we had slice of cosmic crisp apple, a little bit of cougar gold cheese, and a a drizzle of, some kind of honey over the top of it. But, I mean, just the apple and the cheese combination is really good.

Scott Cowan [01:04:22]:

k. To your knowledge, is anybody making a cider with

Kate Evans [01:04:25]:

Yes. Absolutely. Two towns cider, out of Oregon. I think they’re Corvallis based.

Scott Cowan [01:04:30]:

I believe I believe that to be correct.

Kate Evans [01:04:32]:

Very, very good. Mhmm. And I think what is particularly nice that the guy from Two towns had a long conversation with me, actually, just kinda called me about the blue and was asking me about the history of cosmic Chris because he was interested has a a very, pretty high, sugar content, cosmic crisp apple. It’s it’s it’s sweet, but it’s also tart. So you get sort of both of those when you eat it. But for cider making, that is a really good, good balance, sort of boost the alcohol content. And, yeah, it’s it’s a very nice cider.

Scott Cowan [01:05:08]:

Once again, because you’re English. but also because you’re an Apple breeder. Are you a fan of Ciders?

Kate Evans [01:05:15]:

I don’t particularly drink Ciderider. Again, mostly, I think because it’s Apple and and I, you know, I mean, seriously, this is my, I think I’ve done 31 years of selecting Cowan apple orchards. And so, you know, it it’s kinda, put it like, I don’t typically go to a restaurant and have apple pie for dessert, right,

Scott Cowan [01:05:36]:

You know?

Kate Evans [01:05:37]:

And so I there are things that I would drink

Scott Cowan [01:05:41]:

in the post — What what

Kate Evans [01:05:42]:

what would what would you

Scott Cowan [01:05:43]:

select over? Like, if we’re going out to dinner somewhere here in town, and you’re gonna have a a a a beverage with with dinner. What would be your your your

Kate Evans [01:05:52]:

Well, as a as a dark coffee lover, I also like dark beer.

Scott Cowan [01:05:58]:

Oh, pray tell. But —

Kate Evans [01:05:59]:

Oh, yeah. I

Scott Cowan [01:06:02]:

— Are you found the Stouts then?

Kate Evans [01:06:04]:

Or — Porters.

Scott Cowan [01:06:05]:

Porters?

Kate Evans [01:06:07]:

probably a little more than scouts, but yeah, I I will sample many of them. I I I think we have some great local, craft beers.

Scott Cowan [01:06:16]:

And So currently, what’s what comes to mind on that?

Kate Evans [01:06:19]:

if I go sort of slightly beyond Wenatchee, I’m oh, Irish death.

Scott Cowan [01:06:27]:

Oh, really?

Kate Evans [01:06:32]:

Okay.

Scott Cowan [01:06:33]:

Okay. That

Kate Evans [01:06:33]:

tells you about my pallet.

Scott Cowan [01:06:34]:

I don’t know if that that sums it up in two words. Oh my gosh. Alright. Interesting. That’s actually very cool. Alright?

Kate Evans [01:06:44]:

I like wine as well. I do. Yeah. I do do wine.

Scott Cowan [01:06:46]:

But so wine okay. So with your pallet, though, we’re we’re where’s your where’s your palette for wine?

Kate Evans [01:06:51]:

All over the place. Okay. yeah, I I really enjoy, you know, some of these events that the Chamber of Commerce puts on of the the tastings. oh, absolutely great. I really enjoy those.

Scott Cowan [01:07:04]:

Alright. Yeah. Okay. So Carl Music? Yep. Do you do you get out? Do you do any the the, you know, hiking skiing? Are you into any of that?

Kate Evans [01:07:17]:

don’t ski. I tried it to start with, but the kids very quickly outpaced me and it became okay. Well, so so my husband and I would then either snowshoe or hike.

Scott Cowan [01:07:27]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [01:07:28]:

Which we we will still do. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [01:07:30]:

Yeah. Which is great around here. Okay. What didn’t I ask you that I should have?

Kate Evans [01:07:40]:

Yeah. Really good question. no. My mind’s blanking. That’s it. That’s it.

Scott Cowan [01:07:46]:

So I just wanna make sure that we got we cover everything that’s, you know and we could keep going on and on and on. Alright. Now I think I know the answer to this one because you kinda tipped your hand, but this is the I stole I stole that question for people too, but It also stole this question. I think it’s kinda fun. Cake or pie and why?

Kate Evans [01:08:07]:

Oh, now that’s a really tricky one. yeah, I’ll I actually really love to bake. Okay. But I would probably much prefer to bake cake than pie.

Scott Cowan [01:08:19]:

Okay. And what type of cake is it?

Kate Evans [01:08:22]:

I’ll try my hand at anything, but probably chocolate.

Scott Cowan [01:08:27]:

Somehow that seems appropriate for all these things. Okay. And then to wrap it up if if the listeners wanna learn more about the cosmic crisp or WSU, where where would you have people go? What would be a good resource for them?

Kate Evans [01:08:41]:

There is a a cosmic crisp website. I mean, if you just type in cosmic crisp, you’ll find it.

Scott Cowan [01:08:46]:

Okay.

Kate Evans [01:08:47]:

and also WSU tree fruit. has got a lot of, resources for tree fruit growers, but also for just people who are interested in in anything tree fruit.

Scott Cowan [01:08:59]:

k. Excellent. Well, thank you for making this happen.

Kate Evans [01:09:02]:

You’re very welcome.