For Craig Romano, exploring the trails of Washington State wasn’t just a passion – it was his way of inspiring others to discover the great outdoors. Little did he know his guidebooks would take readers on a journey that not only revealed the beauty of nature, but also uncovered stories of historical and ecological importance. What new wonders will Craig uncover on his next exploration?

Craig Romano Episode Transcript

Hello, friends, and welcome to the Exploring Washington State podcast. My name is Scott Cowan, and I’m the host of the show. Each episode, I have a conversation with an interesting guest who is living in or from Washington State. These are casual conversations with real and interesting people. I think you’re gonna like the show.

So let’s jump right in with today’s guest. So I’m sitting down today with Craig Romano. Craig, I I’m gonna just gonna ask this question. I’m on your blog right now. and I’m reading the headline of a post from January 14th 2023. Headline says 2321.1 miles. I did a little calculation, and that’s over six miles a day on average over a year. That in itself is Well, for me impossible to imagine for me, like, no. But, but what I wanna know after you the audience a little bit more of a backstory. But the question I really wanna know during our conversation today is, how do you how are you so prolific of a of a writer? So prolific of a walker, hiker, runner, biker, kayaking, you move your body a lot. I’m assuming you sleep, and I know you have a family. So I really wanna know how you how a day looks in your life. But really what we’re gonna start, I think, with is I was introduced to you by your publishing company out near press. And you’ve just and I’ve got another question here too. Day hiking central cascades, the second edition. brand new book. Been looking at it. Beautiful. I always We were joking before we hit record about, somebody else. And I was giving him a hard time one time about because he just did a second edition of his book on hiking. And I’m like, do hikes change that much so we need to update them? So, Craig, welcome, rambling intro.

Craig Romano [00:02:05]:

Thanks for having me on the program.

Scott Cowan [00:02:07]:

But how do you average six miles a day and be a writer? How let’s let’s just go there because I wanna know that one.

Craig Romano [00:02:14]:

Yeah. Oh, you know, so we process an average So, there are days off. So when I’m when I’m on the trail, my my usual numbers are much higher. But a typical, it may, I guess, it’d be for me it’s it’s more, seasonal and and cyclical that that pretty much from well, pretty much I I I I hike or or run-in in its 10 years, run 6 days a week. So I have to get my my dose of exercise. So that could just be a a quick five, six miles just to clear out my head, on local trails and roads. but in the summer, it gets better. And except from about May to October is what I do most of my my research. And those days are intense. I’ll go out blocks of time, 3 or 4 days at a time, and I’m doing 20 mile days, sometimes even more, to to really get all my, all all the research I need to do. So that’s how how it’s how it all average in the wintertime’s weather changes. It gets darker, lighter, and I’m I’m in front of the computer more. but I still need to get out every day just to get my maintenance, exercise. And, also, I I should have that. I’m a, I’m hardcore runner too. I’ve had a runner all my life. I started a new goal this year. I wanna run a marathon and have a mistake. So so, I started I started that last year, and that’s keeping me more focused to do longer runs during the wintertime also instead of just just during the summertime.

Scott Cowan [00:03:45]:

So at the time of this recording, how many states have you run a marathon in?

Craig Romano [00:03:50]:

Well, I just started. So I launched in, my home stayed in New Hampshire and my state where I live down Washington. I started last year. k. I ran, 8, Marathons Ultra’s last year, but they weren’t around the country. They’re mostly here. So I did it, Mesa in Arizona in February and did Los Angeles Marathon last month, and I’m doing the great potato marathon invoicing next month. So we’re really starting the process.

Scott Cowan [00:04:19]:

I many years ago, a buddy of mine who will be the guy doing the editing of the show and I were sitting around and We came up the idea of a a t shirt company. We were gonna call it potatoware because potato is a shape. And you’re talking about the great potato run and and and and I also see that you’re sponsored by team potato. Is that did I say I click

Craig Romano [00:04:45]:

Okay. Yeah. The Washington State Potato Commission.

Scott Cowan [00:04:47]:

I’m laughing at all these references because I don’t think a potato is being I I just don’t. I mean, I just okay.

Craig Romano [00:04:56]:

Well, you know, it’s the carbs, the potassium, it’s it’s a great power

Scott Cowan [00:05:01]:

It is. I know it is, but but it’s the same time. I just look at us. Look at the differences here between us and and, you know, you see I see this Cowan side and you see the carb side and the potassium. And I’m like, okay. Well, first off, that’s an amazing goal that you wanna run, a a marathon in all 50 states. And do you have a timeline that you’re trying to accomplish this by?

Craig Romano [00:05:24]:

No. It it would be really unrealistic to try to do that because I mean, I do have the family. I do have a family. I do have a career. So, but I wish that. Yeah. If I can you know, get

Scott Cowan [00:05:35]:

5, 6, 7

Craig Romano [00:05:36]:

of them done a year. Who knows? It’s it’s the hardest thing. It’s not actually the running, you know, because I got a a level It’s it’s just, the planning trying to get to all these places. and then Courtney, like, I was I was I just got back in Georgia over there a couple weeks ago, and I couldn’t even find, a marathon at time of year to go. So it’s it’s gonna be problematic because I I definitely would have would have run them if it was in the area.

Scott Cowan [00:06:00]:

Okay.

Craig Romano [00:06:01]:

So so logistics make it tough, but it’s just a goal to get out, to places that perhaps I never been to a homes you want to go to Cincinnati. They have a great marathon there. So why not?

Scott Cowan [00:06:12]:

Okay. Alright. I I never I know when I think of marathons, I think of Boston and the New York Marathons. Those are the the 2 that, you know, a non runner might hear of. And then I hear when actually where I live, they they had a marathon last weekend. This — Yeah. — and, you know, so there when actually had a marathon, it seems like I don’t wanna say I don’t know. Are they growing? Are there more marathons now than there were maybe a decade ago?

Craig Romano [00:06:39]:

Yeah. The thing is it’s amazing. It goes in it goes in cycle. You know, big running boom in the 70, incidentally. I grew up north of Boston. And so we used to, I mean, the Boston marathon so much part of the culture. I actually did run Boston, years ago, I qualified, and it’s an amazing experience. But what’s happened since then and marathons exploding. And, certainly people like Oprah got got it. You got, that average, you know, middle aged woman interest in Marathon and

Scott Cowan [00:07:08]:

— Oprah’s not average. I’m just gonna put put that out. There’s nothing average about Oprah Winfrey. Nothing.

Craig Romano [00:07:13]:

No. But he she got people that never even considered Verathon figure it out and and run them. So, and it goes in waves. It it’s kind of come down a little bit, but the the big numbers seem tend to be the half marathon. that’s where you really see a lot of a lot of in a lot of these events that have marathons, they have half marathons, and almost always the half is bigger, but but not but not in every case, like, in Los Angeles, the marathon was was big. It was huge. It was over 22,000 people, and and the half was a lot a lot smaller. But like, in Wenatchee, I I would probably would be one of the best that the half had a lot more people put in the marathon.

Scott Cowan [00:07:50]:

I I believe it did. I didn’t know a couple of people. I know one person that ran the marathon and one person that ran the half. so my my sample size is it’s split evenly. but very small very small sample size.

Craig Romano [00:08:02]:

And so, yeah, a lot of these, you these communities around the country have these events now. we’re you know, in the in the in the running boom. Yeah. It was just, you know, the big offense, certainly, marathons, you wouldn’t have a place like Wenatchee in the East. it wouldn’t be considered placing up for a marathon, but for now, it’s not unusual. and and marathons all over the place.

Scott Cowan [00:08:24]:

Well, I think this is gonna be my last question about the the mileage that you put in in 2022. How many pairs of shoes and hiking. How what did you go through there?

Craig Romano [00:08:34]:

A lot. And it’s funny. We always joke about it because my wife’s Cowan athlete too, and my son, okay, if if you go into our garage, our shoe rack is you’d swear to 20 people wearing this flip this out. So

Scott Cowan [00:08:45]:

— But I can only find three sizes in the entire thing here. I don’t know what’s going on.

Craig Romano [00:08:49]:

It’s just the hiking shoes, the running shoes, and then and then the rotating. So you have that trail running shoes and street running shoes and then my my racing shoes and and your own yeah. So, I spend a lot of money, with books and Saucony. And and if you’re listening, I would love to be sponsored by you guys. So

Scott Cowan [00:09:08]:

Well, keeping the the, you know, the whole exploring Washington state theme going. I mean, Brooks’s headquarters is here in in in Washington. You should you should reach out to them and and say, hey. I’m a Washington State guy. I’m I’m putting in a lot of miles, not just, you know, in who knows? maybe.

Craig Romano [00:09:25]:

And they are my, Brooks. That is my trail running shoe. Brook discussed radio. I’ve I’ve been running in that religiously for 12, 12 years now. Alright.

Scott Cowan [00:09:37]:

Before we really well, let’s talk about this in context to your new book. Okay? So what you’ve what I’ve heard from you so far is that you on the trails a lot, you you’re putting in a lot of miles and you’re you call it research. How how do you per what Cowan would you walk us through your process for this last book. What?

Craig Romano [00:09:59]:

Yeah. so, basically, it was a a second edition. So I had a a blueprint already on scope of of the of the area. but with that, I want to make it, like, all my books when I redo them. I wanna make them bigger and better And so so looking at what I had originally, I have to decide, okay, is there anything there that has to go for whatever reason. And you’re you’re mentioning earlier due trails change. Yeah. Absolutely. the 2 biggest contributors in this area, why why trails would would change would be funding and, weather. So like, in the National Parkserve, the National Forest Service, it’s not funded the way it should be in a lot of trails, just aren’t getting maintained. And so it’s a real danger that they’re not gonna hike a lot more, especially if one of the, the logging loads leading to it, is washed out and people aren’t getting out there. So so that I’m always looking at. And then the other weather, of course, we have fires here. We have floods, landslides, volcanoes. So those things can change Cowan can certainly change the conditions of the trail. So

Scott Cowan [00:11:09]:

— Okay. Fair enough. I was just I was kidding when I was kidding when I was talking to Brandon about this, you know, but it was like all of all of your explanations make perfect sense. Just I Yeah. Like — Yeah.

Craig Romano [00:11:23]:

In certain parts of the country, it might not be like, I I just wanna I do a lot of hiking in in New England to run from, and there’s there tends to be less change there. It seems to not much extreme weather. The trails are are a little bit better funded in those areas. But then, you know, if we go to place but Georgia will just step back. You have, different, issues like hurricanes and tornadoes. We we change we change the trail also. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:11:48]:

So after you’ve, you know, you kind of gone back and reviewed the first edition and you said, well, this this hike is no longer accessible. So I maybe I’ll remove it from the book or whatever. Whatever you’re just, you know, however you described. And you’ve described once again, you’ve described when you’re out on the trails as research. How are you Are you one of those guys with, like, you know, total recall? You can recall everything you think about. Are you are you out there taking notes? you know, walk me. I am a couch potato. So walk me through your research and how you you’re gathering, and then and then we’ll talk about how you —

Craig Romano [00:12:29]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And and again, the question is both. I I I do have one of those memories where I Cowan recall a lot of things that because because I write things down all the time, that’s part of the process. You know, like, my degree is in history. I’m looking at, I can just rattle off numbers and and I — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:12:45]:

—

Craig Romano [00:12:46]:

and just put it all into perspective. But, But, yeah, when I when I look at with so, basically, I can decide what I’m gonna cover. And a lot of it is I’ve got, like, a blueprint. So, obviously, I’ve got trails from the 1st round. And even and and many of them, I don’t know if they’re gonna make it or not until I get back out there to see on the ground, which I should note that I hide everything I write about. nothing secondhand. I’m out here on the trail, gathering the information. And then I’ll I’ll go through maps I will go through websites of, organizations. I’ll I’ll I’ll I’ll look at, future, trusted trail report areas like the Washington Trust Association and see if there’s anything new that I haven’t heard about in. And then, you know, put that on my initial list. and then, basically, I come up with with the game plan, how I’m going to get all these trails. So I live in the Scagia Valley, so what I was working on, on, the Pacificascades, particularly in your area. That’s not a place I’m gonna go just for one day. And It’s a place I’m gonna spend several days. So I’ll I’ll car camp a lot. I have a good friend who lives in flames, so I spent a lot. So, yeah, so so I have to, you know, plan out my my, my my itinerary. How may I do it? So so I spent a lot of time in playing and it’s great because my friend over there, Jody, she’s an amazing trail runner in HEICO too. So, had a great partner and hit the trails with. and then place it like I have speaking in the book. So I had the plan, had the time there, and obviously go there for for quite a bit of time. So that’s all part of the planning. you know, if it’s minimizing my travel time, it’s minimizing my expenses, and just it it it makes sense to do it that way. And then the fun part, you know, and, again, I I have to plan out through the year because there’s snow levels, river crossings So what can I do early as to, you know, as we progress later in the season? And there’s some hikes too I wanna do earlier in the in the year perhaps because they’re great for wildflowers, like over in Wernache, all the the foothills area.

Scott Cowan [00:14:48]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [00:14:48]:

Great time of year, in May to be over there. and then there’s areas like the the Alpine Larch hikes I wanna do in October, and again for photography because I’m doing my own photography, so I’m trying to capture, especially in the book. it may only have one photo to to really capture the essence of that hike. So I wanna make that count. So I wanna get it at at its peak, whether it’s flower season or large season or what have you. k. so that’s how I do it. And then we’ll once I’m out there, again, I’m hiking everything, that I’m writing about. I’m, often do a side trails, if I’m gonna talk about extensions, tracking everything, through GPS, you know, matching with my trusted maps and sources, some photographing, and I’m taking physical notes and nuts, just writing as we go along. it makes it easier for me to recall information. but I’ll I’ll certainly be taking pictures of lots of signs and things like that too if I need that information.

Scott Cowan [00:15:44]:

Let me interrupt you and ask this. So for since you are your photographer, what are you using Are you using an iPhone? Are you are you running around with a d l s DSLR and and lenses, or what what sort of gear do you carry with you?

Craig Romano [00:16:00]:

Yes. Because I travel light, I guess I’m usually a trail running a lot and trying to travel really light, I’m doing a majority of my photography right now, with the Galaxy a 22 phone. so that’s but up into that point, I was using, a Canon point and shoot. I do have big fancy camera equipment that I’d use on some of my projects, especially if I have to really go. But generally, if I’m trying to cover 20 plus miles a year in that country, I can’t carry £5 of care equipment with me.

Scott Cowan [00:16:31]:

It’s not just the £5 of it. It’s the it’s the dollar amount that you’d be carrying that you would you would — Right. We would find you in a huddled up in a ball because you watched your $10,000 lens fall, you know, it’d be — Well,

Craig Romano [00:16:44]:

it’s funny you say that because when I’m when I get caught in bad other or I’m doing the river crossing. Some I don’t care about me getting wet. You know, it’s exactly it’s the phone. It’s the it’s the the the $500 watch that I’m wearing that cracking me.

Scott Cowan [00:16:58]:

Right.

Craig Romano [00:16:59]:

Like that that I’m worried about getting wet. I’ll I’ll dry out. You know?

Scott Cowan [00:17:03]:

You’ll dry out. Yeah. But that electronic gear may or may not. And yeah. Right. Okay. So you’ve done

Craig Romano [00:17:09]:

my notebook too, my notes. I mean, that’s paper. I have that.

Scott Cowan [00:17:11]:

That’s — So you’re using paper, so you’re using, like, a a little notepad in your

Craig Romano [00:17:15]:

your little notepad. Yep.

Scott Cowan [00:17:16]:

Okay.

Craig Romano [00:17:17]:

Yep. That can flip through, and it makes it really easy for me to to recall the information too.

Scott Cowan [00:17:21]:

I’m gonna arbitrarily flip to a hike in this book. We’re gonna just randomly stop right here. And find the next hike that starts. Isicle gourged Trail. Okay. Walk me through that one. Just I’m putting you on the spot in the sense from a from a research point of view. You went out to this trail. Yep. I know nothing about this truck. So it could be — It’s it’s

Craig Romano [00:17:43]:

a great and matter of fact, it’s a great trail for, people who don’t hike.

Scott Cowan [00:17:47]:

Okay. I see I see it’s 4.2 miles. Doesn’t sound too terrible to me.

Craig Romano [00:17:51]:

And there’s not much elevation gain. That’s the other thing. Cause, remember, you want more than just the miles to be four point two miles. going straight up. This is 4.2 miles. It’s pretty gentle terrain. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:18:00]:

Okay. So when you went out there to do your research, this for this this addition of the book. You you took your your phone. You took your notebook. Get it with you. You went out. you you did all of this stuff. So you you spend, I don’t know, how how long do you think you might have spent on this 4 point 2 mile Trail doing research.

Craig Romano [00:18:22]:

Let’s let’s let you ask. I don’t know. because normally that would take me very little time, but I did the research with that with my son who was 6 at the time. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:18:31]:

So — Okay.

Craig Romano [00:18:32]:

So, so we actually spent quite a bit of time there because he wanted to soak in the river. I didn’t know it was only about 40 degrees. yeah, only cracks me up. He’s out of my family. He’s the only one of us who’s native Washington is born here, but he always tell jokes his dad. I got your New Hampshire blood, but but even my New Hampshire blood doesn’t allow me to get that cold.

Scott Cowan [00:18:55]:

So — So your research assistant took this into a new direction to see it. Okay.

Craig Romano [00:19:01]:

So we had to soak there for a while. It was a real hot day. So that that, that helped.

Scott Cowan [00:19:06]:

Craig Romano [00:19:07]:

But but normally, a 4 a 4.2 mile round trip hike even just, you know, leisurely taking pictures, things like that, it’s it’s gonna be an hour a half, 2 hours. So what I usually do short hikes like that is I’m I’m doing something else, on that day too. Because, again, I gotta maximize, my time. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:19:28]:

So Alright. So we’ve done we’re just gonna say, you know, you’ve done your your research and you’ve batched that up with other things. And now you’ve you come back down to your office where you’re you’re actually writing.

Craig Romano [00:19:39]:

Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:19:41]:

Walk me through on that trail how would you have assembled all your notes and all that into the

Craig Romano [00:19:47]:

into the article? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to approach the trail. generally, sometimes, it it makes you obvious, you know, there might not be one one way to approach it, but sometimes it could be several ways to get some trouble. So we’re you know, where’s the main place where people are gonna start? you know, I have to I have to write accurate driving directions to get people for these places too. And in that case, I’m going to, start the directions from level work. You know, pretty much people know where level worth is and how to get there. And then where we go from there, maybe too many people. No.

Scott Cowan [00:20:17]:

Yeah. I think that’s that’s, yeah, so you’re more accurate with that one right

Craig Romano [00:20:20]:

now. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we’ll send them there. I’ll tell them at the trailer for Celg you know, what’s at the trailhead? you know, is there a preview there? That’s important too. you know, just, you know, people, not only just for, comfort, but for the environment, we don’t want people going all over the place to become a problem in a lot of areas. so if it’s not there, people can plan ahead of time, you know, stop at our station or what have you. And then do you need to pass? That’s another thing. It’s important. There’s so many different, land management agencies out there with all their own rules and regulations. So I put it up front. And same thing, our dogs a lot. If so, you know, what are the regulations? This is high good for children. In this case, yes. And I’ll put that in there And then some other icons too that people, who are trying to filter their hikes, I like to it’s a flower. a hike that has exceptional flowers. I leveled those forests. It’s a hike with that. If it’s historical, because it’s another one in my of my favorite inch in my interest. So I’ll put a lot of these little icons into the the quick research. So people can see right up front, hey. The hike sounds perfect for me or or, you know, let’s check out a different one. And then we’ll just go on a little description of the hike, but I try not to be overly descriptive because that could be boring and read like a, like a manual. So I’m trying to put some throws and make it close to the point that you could stick on a rainy day and read the book, and it can inspire you and entice you to go out instead of just being a boring point by point. So, and then with each hike, I try to take one facet and maybe elaborate a little bit more on it. so it could be a particular a flower, an animal, a historical piece, something like that, again, to give it a little bit more, to make it more than just a hike, to make it more of an experience. so so I tried to do that. I mean, it doesn’t always work that way, but but some of the hikes are actually fascinating, but there’s more than just the preview. you know, again, just what is the experience on this hike? It’s pretty much you’re going through this this cascading, creek. You walk on the side. It’s all it’s been carved out. It’s big, open poderers of Pines along the way, really, really accessible to campsites, to Leavenworth, just about anybody who can do this, you know, from very young, very old to people who don’t hike at all, that’s kind of emphasis. I mean, so it’s a great hike to to to get people interested.

Scott Cowan [00:22:38]:

And I picked it completely random. I — And

Craig Romano [00:22:40]:

then that’s great. But

Scott Cowan [00:22:41]:

I’m glad I am. Part of the reason I’m asking you these very, like, you know, tactical questions is the other thing ties into your you you move a lot, 23100 miles in a year. but you’ve published over 25 books now.

Craig Romano [00:22:56]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:22:57]:

So you’re you you you’re prolific. And what I’m hearing from you is time management. You know, you’re you you mentioned you couldn’t find a a marathon in Georgia at the time. I mean, you’re you’re you’re planning out You’ve got a lot of moving parts because I’m gonna guess that your are you when you’re writing, are you working on more than one book at a time? Okay.

Craig Romano [00:23:19]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:23:19]:

So you’re batching things up and you’re trying to be really effective time management.

Craig Romano [00:23:26]:

Yeah. I know. It doesn’t always I’m not very good at sometimes. first of

Scott Cowan [00:23:30]:

all, but, I mean, come on, man. You’ve written 25 books. You’ve done 23100 miles last year. I I argue with you on that one. I’m I’m gonna argue.

Craig Romano [00:23:38]:

And the crazy thing too with the book too, because, like, I have a new book now. So my book tours, I do talk, I do tours in writing. I’m writing for, the, the trend map, the new trail, you know, the trail map, app that’s out

Scott Cowan [00:23:54]:

Yeah.

Craig Romano [00:23:55]:

So I’m doing a lot. It’s it’s over. And then again, I have a family.

Scott Cowan [00:23:59]:

Right. And and that’s and that’s what I mean, that to me from the outside looking in is the is the, part that’s amazing because you have all of these other commitments and and you’re very prolific and the quality is very high. and you’re taking care of yourself physically. You you, like you said, you have a family and you’re teaching your son to sit in 40 degree water. I I mean,

Craig Romano [00:24:27]:

He taught himself, by that way.

Scott Cowan [00:24:28]:

Okay. I mean, alright. So I I kid, but so it’s it’s amazing to me that you are as organized. And you might go on not organized, but, I mean, I’m telling you that I haven’t talked to a lot of people that have come anywhere close to the body of work that you’ve created in the amount of time. So

Craig Romano [00:24:49]:

could’ve still

Scott Cowan [00:24:49]:

—

Craig Romano [00:24:50]:

A lot of it, blame my East Coast upbringing. I am definitely I’m type a. Okay. I’m goal oriented. always have been driven, very driven. so I think a lot of it, that’s kinda how I gravitated it because writing guidebooks, you have to be detail oriented. then I’m self employed. There’s nobody breathing over my shoulder. you’ve gotta be able to to do this stuff, get in not go down the internet hole when you’re doing research. so I think, yeah, there’s definitely a different, a a certain type of personality that, that’s gonna be drawn to this, which is also very funny because a lot of my, friends and and acquaintances in the trail running world said, when you see the stuff they do, I I pay out to some of the mileage and things they do. And then you find out, they have families with lawyers. So I’ll these high pro and same thing. You’re all type a. They’re all and and I joke, so I can’t speak for rest of the at Haley Pacific. If I wasn’t doing all this, I’d probably I’d plug in alcohol because it’s like, I gotta do something to keep to get my buzz and keep going. Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:25:52]:

Alright. Well well, So one of the things that I I read or I listened to a an a snippet of a podcast that you were on you earlier, when you’re younger, you’ve you’ve biked all All states in continental US. Correct?

Craig Romano [00:26:11]:

Yeah. I — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:26:11]:

— 40.

Craig Romano [00:26:12]:

I actually did Alaska too and all the Canadian provinces. it was over the course of of three trips. and it was all before turned

Scott Cowan [00:26:19]:

21.

Craig Romano [00:26:20]:

So — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:26:28]:

obsessing. Oh.

Craig Romano [00:26:31]:

Abs absolutely. And, yeah, it’s funny. You mentioned that too. So from a very young age, I don’t know where I got I’ve I’ve just had these existential crises that I realized life’s too short, there’s too much out there. I need to see and do as much as I can because I’m gonna get robbed of of the long life because I can live 5, 6, 7 lifetimes. So, again, it always cracks me up. You know, my house always sit there. It’s like the word boredom doesn’t exist. Nothing to do. And I just laugh at people, not laugh. I’m just I kinda look at it. Like, how can you just be doing nothing when there’s so much to do? because you don’t you get 1 you you get one shot here. one shot. That’s it. And I wanna seize as much as I can. Eventually, you know, I’ll I’ll have to slow down. I’ll be forced to slow down. But

Scott Cowan [00:27:20]:

—

Craig Romano [00:27:20]:

But but I wanna keep going as much as I can. And that’s the whole thing with the marathon too. so so 2 2 years ago, I I I pretty much had, yeah, I had a crisis number 25. I don’t even know at this point.

Scott Cowan [00:27:33]:

I I’m sorry. I’m laughing. I should laugh at Harrison’s crisis now. Yes.

Craig Romano [00:27:36]:

Yes. Believe me. I I I’m really good at it. I joke about it, but, yeah, I’ve had so many. So what happens, 3 major things converge on my life, and and and one of them certainly covers on many people’s lives. You know, we hit the pandemic. pandemic hit. And that you searched, a lot of things in a lot of courses. At that same time, I developed an auto game disorder. Okay. It it’s that that I thought was that was done. I had polymyalgia rheumatica PR, and my range in motion I couldn’t even turn my neck. Things it was bad. And I thought I’m done at fifty nine years old. And then I turned 60 the the following year, and I thought, of all the 0 years, that’s the one that hit the hardest because I thought, my god, there really isn’t that much time, bro. when I started looking at it, like, all the years. And that and then through, through medication. I’ve controlled my situation. I could still do. It’s amazing. I could still do the things I’m doing. I’m so so grateful for that. And as far as the age, I keep thinking, you know, I may only have one really good, hardcore decade left in me. Hopefully, a couple. I I I’m not gonna take any chances. I’m gonna do as much as I can because, I don’t know what tomorrow’s gonna be. And that’s kind of in our household how how we how we’re, we’re working on things. You you don’t know what tomorrow’s gonna be, and, you know, we wanna be grateful for for for what we have and and just really seize the opportunities and and and and and live life before us.

Scott Cowan [00:29:06]:

I’m I’m nodding my head because, I recently earlier couple weeks ago, turned 61.

Craig Romano [00:29:16]:

you and I are we’re we’re we’re, yeah. We’re peers.

Scott Cowan [00:29:19]:

Yeah. And last year, When I turned 60, my wife threw a surprise birthday party for me, which was really kinda cool. It was a lot of fun. And that was fine. But I’ve really I’ve really struggled for the last, out of month, with the you said the 0 number a year. Those don’t get me. It’s the I’m 60 something or I I so since we’re about the same age, you remember well, you probably don’t watch TV, but back in when we were in our 30, so 30 years ago now, there was a show out there called 30 something.

Craig Romano [00:29:51]:

I remember the show. I never saw it, but it was it was very, very popular. I do remember.

Scott Cowan [00:29:55]:

Right. And I just remember watching that and going, Yeah. They’re all dysfunctional. Well, we didn’t probably use that word back then either. It was, you know, but anyway, they’re all they all have their issues, but they’re all so much further along than I am. And it really, really messed with my head for I well, I let it mess with my head for a number of months, dare I say years. And I’m really trying to fight that here at 60 something. I don’t I don’t wanna be because like you said, you you used hardcore. You you might have you said you might have another hardcore decade, hopefully, too. I’m hoping that I have a not hardcore because I’m not that way, but, like, I wanna be productive in fully functioning for the next 2 2 plus decades.

Craig Romano [00:30:45]:

Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [00:30:46]:

And that’s not that long of a period of time when you look backwards.

Craig Romano [00:30:49]:

Exactly. Yep.

Scott Cowan [00:30:50]:

So I applaud I applaud your your outlook on things, but we’re gonna go we’re gonna go backwards because this this bike, this North American bike expedition that you went on. And I know you probably answered this question previously, and I and I and I hope it’s, you know, but from New Hampshire, what brought you to Washington state? Why did you leave the, you know, the northeast? And to why did you come to Washington?

Craig Romano [00:31:19]:

Yeah. That’s a good question. And, I don’t mind answering that because, I like to consider myself by Coastal.

Scott Cowan [00:31:25]:

Okay. By Coastal.

Craig Romano [00:31:27]:

You know, I I’m a native New England there. I I love New England. I never thought it was summer New Hampshire.

Scott Cowan [00:31:33]:

Craig Romano [00:31:33]:

And, I’ve been out here, to Washington, three times before before I moved out here twice was my bicycle. and and then I came out in the summer of 85, specifically to hike. so what happened kinda make the story shorter. I was very young, didn’t work out, and, I went to a a really, really terrible time. And I joked. I said I need to find my head straight. And, I was living in Vermont at the time. I think, what is the state farthest away from Vermont, Washington? Alright. That’s where I’m going. Okay. It’s a joke I tell you. But, actually, I I had been out here before. I I I I knew the terrain. I knew, I wanted to explore it. My best friend, incidentally, the the guy I biked across around America with when I was eighteen years old was grad student at the University of Washington at the time.

Scott Cowan [00:32:23]:

Craig Romano [00:32:23]:

And so I just came out and, I hung out with him for a while, and I decided, you know, I’m just gonna get a job. wait, you know, waiting tables, cooking some, get my head straight and hike.

Scott Cowan [00:32:36]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [00:32:36]:

And so, it’s just it’s interesting how all how it all, ended up end up phone end up going back to college out here instead of factories, with the University of Washington, And I went every year. I just kept fighting. You know, god, I really love it out here, but I love it back home and just going back and forth. It just driving me crazy. but as as life goes, you never know how things are gonna work out. I my career started developing out here and and things, and and it looked like this is was all meant to be. so I do spend a lot of time back in New England when I try to get back to quite a bit. My parents are still They’re still alive. so I’m trying to spend, make sure my son has lots of good grandparent time. I love hiking back there. So again, joking about being bicoastal. but, yeah, that’s that’s the thing. There’s there’s things about the the the north at northwest log. that you can’t find in New England. There’s things about New England. I love you. Can’t find out here, and it’s it’s just the way it is. So — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:33:33]:

Well, it’s, you know, it’s I I grew up in the Tacoma area. I went to college in Ellensburg. I moved to Seattle area for a couple of decades, moved to Tacoma, moved to Winache in 2017. I’ve lived my entire life within the boundaries of the state. I I have seen a lot of the United States. I think I’m up to, like, 45, 42 States somewhere. I have a shoot somewhere over here, but, you know, it’s, you know, I haven’t been to Alaska Hawaii. I do. I can I can answer that one, you know. And I don’t know that this is no disrespect to any other state. I I just don’t know where else I would live. I just there’s so much variety opportunity. it doesn’t get boring here. I mean, I during winter’s at you, I would argue that it’s boring because it I feel kind of like I’m trapped, but we have all four seasons. We’ve got, you know, I’ve got ocean. I’ve got, you you know, the drill. You you you know, I’m sounding like the tourism board for the state, just espousing the the benefits of Washington State, but we’re really quite lucky. And so I stay here and we talk about it a lot now.

Craig Romano [00:34:46]:

Well, you know, it’s it’s funny you mentioned that because people get into that trap. and I’ve written about this many times. I, obviously, I love it here. I live here. I I chose, but I could live anywhere. I type of work at that I do. Right. I’ve been to Florida United States, and I go to I go to States, the people, we need to consider going. Like, I was in Mississippi and Alabama there was absolutely love. and and this is what I I like to I and I’ve written about this many times, is that we get caught in this mentality. this contentment, like, Mount Rainier is spectacular. It is the most incredible place. Ygal anywhere else. And then I’ll tell you, I’m in the the mobile the mobile Tennisaw Delta, which is considered the America’s Amazon. It’s one of the most intact river systems, deltas, old road fault Cyprus trees, alligators, incredible history, dolphins, you know, manatees, not gonna find that in Washington. No. And that’s the thing I’m always saying is that there’s so much out there. I just got back from Georgia. I was in the Okey Fanofi swamp. okey Funokey swap is largest in Mount Rainier. it’s a it’s a wilderness. It we counted my son and my wife and I did a hike, 6 mile hike, 48 alligators. we counted on it. Right?

Scott Cowan [00:36:00]:

That’s 49 too many.

Craig Romano [00:36:02]:

Yeah. I know most people a friend of mine who who works out here says it’s equivalent to how people move out here are afraid of bears. It’s like we go down to Florida or or Georgia. But the thing is, I’ve read a lot about where we get into this you know, same thing when when I was growing up in New Hampshire, but New Hampshire is the most beautiful state in the nation. Why do I wanna live anywhere else? it is a beautiful state, but there’s plenty of many places to live in in the same or at least experience. And I think lots of times our own bias, we get comfortable in an area. It seems like culture. Again, I grew up in New England. It’s a very, very different culture than the northwest. but I love Southern California. I love the south. It’s It it it’s just amazing. It’s like, god, people are so different, and it’s great to embrace this this diversity of of of of culture.

Scott Cowan [00:36:50]:

As you know, as I told you this on the phone, I always ask my guests about coffee. And I’m gonna ask you, this is I’ve never asked anybody this question this way before. So this is we’ll see how this one goes. This is really important. Dunkin’ Donuts or Starbucks?

Craig Romano [00:37:08]:

You nailed it. It’s so funny. I’m drinking Dunkin’ Donuts right now.

Scott Cowan [00:37:12]:

Are you really?

Craig Romano [00:37:13]:

Yeah. I I I buy it, but but I want to I have Starbucks at the house too. So and and you’re gonna love this too. We travel because I’m one of those when in Rome due with the Romans do type of thing. So when I’m driving around Washington, Oregon, I need a copy of Starbucks. Okay?

Scott Cowan [00:37:30]:

Sure.

Craig Romano [00:37:31]:

When I’m when I’m back in New England, Duncan Jones, when I’m in Canada, it’s Tim Hortons all the way. Oh

Scott Cowan [00:37:40]:

my gosh. Alright. I gotta I’m gonna put you on the spot. That’s not an acceptable answer. One must go. For the rest of your life, you Cowan only drink 1. Which one’s it gonna be?

Craig Romano [00:37:50]:

Oh, man. You’re you’re

Scott Cowan [00:37:51]:

you’re yep. You’re done. One’s gotta go.

Craig Romano [00:37:54]:

Oh, probably Starbucks is better. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:37:57]:

Oh, okay. I’ve not tried to coerce you into that answer. Okay.

Craig Romano [00:38:02]:

but it’s funny. I I, I drive people crazy a lot of things because, I I don’t I I I don’t like to get pigeonholed into anything. It’s just so funny. because people, especially now, you know, are so identified or are tribes and and everything like yours. And I I just kinda like, I I’m okay to experiment with different things, and it and and someone having me drink something. Like, someone offering me pizza isn’t gonna be a a a salt on my Starbucks.

Scott Cowan [00:38:31]:

you know, if you if you know your coffee history, you’ll know that the guy who started pizza is the guy who’s trained Starbucks original roaster. So, I mean, they’re they’re connected, you know. Right. Chadmittedly.

Craig Romano [00:38:41]:

Right. And then Howard Schultz is from the East Coast, originally. So — Oh,

Scott Cowan [00:38:46]:

and and then Pete’s is owned now by Green Mountain, which is you know, you know, so it’s — Yeah.

Craig Romano [00:38:52]:

You know, it’s funny about Green Mountain because I was living in Vermont in the eighties, Green Mountain. That’s I drank all the time. I worked at a ski resort at Stop at the coffee shop. That was the coffee. Right. And now, you know, then they got bought out by, like, Curig or something. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:39:06]:

Curig. Yeah. Curiguns. Yeah.

Craig Romano [00:39:08]:

Yeah. But, no green mountain with my coffee, when I was in Vermont. And, of course, Ben and Jerry’s is is my ice cream no matter where I am.

Scott Cowan [00:39:17]:

We we are in agreement on that one. Okay? There there’s no there’s no no. No. That Yeah. No. Ben and Jerry’s in their single serving pints. I mean, those are single serving containers. Right? Okay. Yeah.

Craig Romano [00:39:26]:

That’s and tell them a tell them it’s acceptable, but Ben and Jerry’s is where that. Yeah. Ben and

Scott Cowan [00:39:31]:

Jerry’s is different. It’s that. Yeah. Okay. Now in but this is a a I’m kidding about the whole coffee thing, but I do have a a genuine coffee question. How do you prefer your coffee? How do you drink coffee?

Craig Romano [00:39:47]:

Are you? It’s gotta be hot. Okay. Are you

Scott Cowan [00:39:53]:

—

Craig Romano [00:39:53]:

My wife drinks it cold. I can’t. It’s like, you can’t, oh, how Can you do that?

Scott Cowan [00:39:56]:

I I well, I can’t, too, but oh, so are you just are you a just a coffee drinker? Or do you like lattes? Are you are you buying, you know, what I generally call the Fufu drinks?

Craig Romano [00:40:05]:

I noticed it begins.

Scott Cowan [00:40:06]:

Yeah.

Craig Romano [00:40:09]:

coffee with a tiny bit of cream. That’s it. Yep. But it was a good coffee. I can drink. black, though.

Scott Cowan [00:40:13]:

So when you’re drinking coffee, lighter roast or darker roast?

Craig Romano [00:40:19]:

I prefer the lighter but dark fine. I I I’m I get, asset reflux quite a bit, so I gotta keep keep some of that tone down. Okay. Alright. Yeah. Do I drink in the backcountry?

Scott Cowan [00:40:31]:

Yeah. What do you oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. What do you

Craig Romano [00:40:34]:

Some some coffee could come out of sewers. I mean, they carry all the gadgets and everything. Right. I’m I am keep it simple. Like, Starbucks would be the best thing since since sliced bread is great.

Scott Cowan [00:40:45]:

There’s a have you tried any of these coffees that are coming in, like, tea bags?

Craig Romano [00:40:51]:

I think I’ve tried some in the past, and they taste more like tea.

Scott Cowan [00:40:56]:

There’s a there’s a a roaster out of Spokane, roast house, and they their signature coffee is what’s called the f bomb. And it’s, yeah, it’s it’s because the owner, she’s been noted for saying the f bomb a lot. And so they — Is

Craig Romano [00:41:11]:

she from New York?

Scott Cowan [00:41:13]:

I don’t know where she’s from originally. That’s a really good question. But their f bomb in these little and I’m I’m calling it a tea bag, which is the wrong thing, but in a in a little steeper. There’s, you know, steeper.

Craig Romano [00:41:24]:

Yep.

Scott Cowan [00:41:24]:

because I’m with you. They’re yeah. They’re more like tea. And this one’s I think it’s better than a via packet.

Craig Romano [00:41:35]:

Okay. I’m gonna try it. Yeah. Let

Scott Cowan [00:41:36]:

let’s put it that way.

Craig Romano [00:41:37]:

Now Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:41:39]:

and the nice thing is the entire packaging is compostable. better.

Craig Romano [00:41:43]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:41:43]:

So that’s that’s an advantage for when you’re going out in in the wilderness. What brought you to Washington? and don’t say your feet or your bike. But,

Craig Romano [00:41:54]:

it was, yeah, it was the whole I was going through a crisis. you know

Scott Cowan [00:41:58]:

—

Craig Romano [00:41:58]:

That’s right.

Scott Cowan [00:41:58]:

That’s right.

Craig Romano [00:41:59]:

Yeah. And and I did get my head straight. Right. Yeah. No. It’s and it’s funny because at the time, you know, I was twenty eight years old and, you know, it’s like depressed, the world. It’s everything’s awful. You know, it’s like everything I would through. But, again, this kinda gets into philosophy and zen and all that. It it was it was meant to happen. I had to go to the darkness to get to the light And I think a lot of times people don’t realize that when they go through. And at looking back, it was all part of my my my course. I would not be here with my career, you know, with my with my wife, my child, all these things that that because of this awful thing that happens to me, that forced me to, to make a change, to make a big change, and to take a risk. And I think I should that’s the only thing I like to emphasize too. I think too many people, because I write about this a lot too. get into the comfort zone. They’re afraid to to take chances to take risks. They’re afraid to fail, especially, you know, the younger generations like your pod doctor. not to fail, you know, again, to bail that, you have to fail. Absolutely. That’s that’s so you’re aware. Even as an author, how many reach, you know, it’s it’s cliche, but how many rejections that I went through before before I finally was accepted as a right. I mean, that’s that’s part of it. But if I quit after I was rejected first times, that would be the end of my career. Mhmm. So I do the same thing physically, too, about pushing your body, see what you, what what you’re capable of doing because you really live in really experienced life and the pure emotion when you get out of your comfort zone and just go for it. Now that’s telling people to be wrecked It’s gotta be calculated because, you know, you don’t wanna be reckless. And so so one of the things, you know, I enjoy doing is is endurance events. Just seeing what my body is capable of doing. And then, again, I love getting out of my comfort zone traveling and just getting it done experience places and and and seeing, like, don’t go to Disneyland. Don’t go to Mazalo on. I’ve been to Paraguay. I mean, things like that. That’s the type of type of stuff I wanna do. yeah, and it’s a it’s just, intensifies your life. It’s amazing. And and and and I don’t think I should emphasize too because I get asked this a lot too. People always ask me you know, we’re in my some of my favorite places because I I travel so much. And I have lots of them, but some of my my my, best memories, are the experiences of the people that I met of situations that came that that intensified it far more than some spectacular mountain or ruined summer. So, again, don’t be afraid to meet people. Don’t be afraid to to get out there. I’ve met lots of people. I’m I’m I’m really approachable. you know, I’m, I I’d love meeting people. I meet people wherever I go. and, I can be part a great experience.

Scott Cowan [00:44:47]:

I’m not gonna ask you your favorite hike or anything like that because that’s just that’s just just just impossible. But is there with regards to Washington State, in Washington State only, is there, a hike, a place an event that you haven’t done that is on your list of things you want to experience?

Craig Romano [00:45:10]:

you know, there’s very few hikes. in a state that I haven’t that I haven’t gotten to, some of the ones I have are are more than there’s a few backpacking hardware stuff that I haven’t gotten to yet. but, no, I feel that’s been seen. That’s that’s a good point too. I mean, I love the state I’ve hiked it thoroughly, and they’ve written from, you know, all four corners.

Scott Cowan [00:45:34]:

Yeah. Yes. You have.

Craig Romano [00:45:36]:

And I never get tired, but that’s kinda where I’m at. right now is that, again, there’s so much time left. There’s so much more out there that I wanna see now too, which is which is as well as things too. It’s like, okay. I’ve gotten to the point. There and they’re still surprises too, but usually when I when I hike Washington, I I know the plants I’m gonna see, you know, which is good. So, again, you stick me into a totally different environment. I was in Southern Arizona in February, I have no idea what the heck I’m hiking group. so that sense of, excitement and, you know, a discovery starts all over again. The same thing coming back from Southern Georgia, same looking at plants and, I mean, it’s a whole different world. So that’s kind of where I’m starting to shift some of my focus now. it’s trying to get back to some of these places I haven’t ventured since my biking days or places that I’ve always wanted to go to. but as far as Washington, there is one thing. It’s funny you mentioned because of all the hiking I’ve done, there is something that I have not done, and I didn’t think I was interested until recently. Again, because life is getting shorter, and I’ve got a sun that I’m trying to deep into. I’ve never climbed Mount Rainier. Oh, okay. I’ve done the Wonderland Trail. I’ve you know, I’ve hiked every trail in the park and all the the peaks a lot. I’ve been up Mount Adams. I’ve been up Mount St. Hellens. I’ve never been up right Cowan. And so I think that’s something I’m probably gonna end up making happen at some point, and and I’d like to do it with my son. So that’s, so so, yeah, there there so even in the state of all these places that that I’ve I’ve I’ve had to, there there are still some some experiences in in that that have not done yet.

Scott Cowan [00:47:22]:

And that’s a that’s a big iconic And I don’t I don’t think of you as a climber per se. So I didn’t I didn’t expect that you would have climbed. I mean, I wouldn’t have been surprised if you had said, yeah, I’ve climbed right here. I was talking to a a guy, a friend of mine, who’s been on the show a couple times. And I know him as a musician. Right? And so I think of him as a as a musician primarily. He’s a history nut. He he and a buddy the last couple summers have recreated old historic climbs from from Fort Nisquale to Rainier, following in the the journals of from the 1850s of these guys.

Craig Romano [00:48:01]:

Oh.

Scott Cowan [00:48:01]:

And I was talking to him and we were recording the episode and I just casually asked. I said, so how many times have you submitted Rainier? He goes, I think 13. Wow. And I’m just like, because I, you know, And, yeah, that’s that’s if he he’s into it.

Craig Romano [00:48:20]:

So — It’s funny because there’s certain things you know, that’s just, you know, as we get older, get this danger of of being set in your ways. And I’ve I’ve always tried to you know, it’s tough. I know, I’m certainly mentally. Yeah. It’s tough. but I try, you know, things that I thought, I poo pooed at one point, and then you start thinking, you know, So, again, I’m not a climber. I’ll I’ll I’ll do some scrambling, but but, generally, I I’m I’m more into endurance. I Cowan move. But, you know, more and more, I think, of who I am, what I do living here, the impact, experience, I’m thinking, man, gotta get a plan here at least once because this is one of those one of those and, again, I know it’s gonna be it’s out of my comfort zone. and there would be an amazing experience to to do that and to to to see the state literally from a different perspective. Absolutely. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:49:12]:

No. So I got a couple of questions I like to ask authors. Now help me out here. When was your first book published? What year?

Craig Romano [00:49:20]:

Oh, boy. 20 years ago, man. Yeah. That sounds about right.

Scott Cowan [00:49:23]:

2000.

Craig Romano [00:49:23]:

So we’re

Scott Cowan [00:49:24]:

gonna go back 20 years.

Craig Romano [00:49:25]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:49:27]:

Different landscape. That’s gonna be kinda cool. So, hopefully, you know, you said you had a good memory, so I’m I’m expecting an answer here. What did you feel when you saw your first book in public for the first time?

Craig Romano [00:49:42]:

Yeah. It’s I I I don’t wanna, trivialize motherhood, but it feels like it it’s your child. It’s like I gave birth to this printed. and and I always joke too. I mean, the the pain of putting these things together. It’s and you ask any writer. It’s no it’s not fun. I don’t know why we do this. I’m I’m anything in the book right now with I hate I hate the process. I can’t stand it. The fun part is going out there and doing hikes. But, and then doing the talks afterwards.

Scott Cowan [00:50:09]:

Sure.

Craig Romano [00:50:09]:

You know, keeping the rewards that way, meeting people and and talk. But the process is is growing. It’s, yeah, it’s not fun. So yeah, after you get that out, it’s just it’s amazing. You know, the amount of work you put into it, you see your name on that. It’s your ownership. It’s you. It’s part of who you are. Yeah. So, amazing amount of pride. And then all of a sudden, especially, you know, I I I had, written articles since I was a teenager, you know, starts to be published and do that. But but now I can, tell you that we’re author, you know, that it just elevates you on a different a different level. yeah, there’s certainly and and I think I would be a liar if I told you that I’m not ego driven. I think most people in the creatives and most creatives are and in in a full, you know, they’re they’re lying. If they’re they’re telling you not, and if they aren’t ego driven, they’re not going anywhere. They’re in a coffee shop, you know, even pretending to be a writer. So, yeah, I think that that drives me.

Scott Cowan [00:51:08]:

And and you wanna get that feedback and that feedback drives me, and

Craig Romano [00:51:14]:

you you want, you know, every time I joke, it’s like, oh, I’m done writing books. I don’t wanna write anymore. And then people will write to you and say how much they love your work, and they’ve got you out in in your meeting. I’m like, I darn it. I gotta write another one. It’s like Sucks

Scott Cowan [00:51:26]:

me back in.

Craig Romano [00:51:27]:

Okay. I know. If you think, what’s my second act gonna be? I’m like, I don’t I’ve been an author for 2. I I’m gonna be doing something different.

Scott Cowan [00:51:33]:

So where did you see your book for the first time?

Craig Romano [00:51:37]:

Well, that’s a good question. I can’t can’t pinpoint that. the, you know, you see the catalog to that, but just even walking in the bookstores, I mean, in making an effort to actually walk to that area of the bookstore, So do you

Scott Cowan [00:51:50]:

are you one of those authors? because I’ve talked to someone. This is I’m and had if I ever write a book, I will do this too. So I’m making fun, but

Craig Romano [00:51:58]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:52:00]:

I was talking to this author and she goes, and I face the shells with my books. I walked into the bookstore and I I put mine up here and I can’t remember what author she said, but I’ll say a conversation, you know, with Stephen King. I put his on the bottom, and I’m like, but faced him up. And and I was laughing because it’s like, I would do the same thing.

Craig Romano [00:52:17]:

Yeah.

Scott Cowan [00:52:18]:

So when you and I talked to another author, and I asked him this question, like, where did you see your book for the first time in public? And his answer and I share this every time I talk to an author because I’d his answer just shocked me. His offer and he writes about Seattle history kind of prohibition era history. So Seattle’s see the underside. Right? And I’m like, so where did you see your book when the when it was first published. She goes, at Bartell Drugs? I’m like,

Craig Romano [00:52:47]:

He was

Scott Cowan [00:52:47]:

at Bartell’s has has a great local book selection. And I was like, That’d been really odd to me to steal it. So watching the motels in my book.

Craig Romano [00:52:58]:

You never know. Matter of fact, my my urban trails Vancouver Washington book

Scott Cowan [00:53:03]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [00:53:03]:

The number one place that it’s being sold, and I actually did a sign in there. Is that one of those fancy Shanty grocery stores? So — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:53:12]:

—

Craig Romano [00:53:12]:

not not at a bookstore, not at the NASH, you know, at the — Okay.

Scott Cowan [00:53:15]:

—

Craig Romano [00:53:15]:

Fort Vancouver, but at a grocery store, at a high end, you know, live in grocery store.

Scott Cowan [00:53:20]:

k. Hi.

Craig Romano [00:53:21]:

This is the only carry handful of books. Mine’s one of them, and they sell hundreds of it. And, Wow. Yeah. You never know.

Scott Cowan [00:53:27]:

picking up some sliced turkey and a loaf of bread in the book.

Craig Romano [00:53:30]:

And and my book. And so it was funny I was doing a book signing at a grocery store. So

Scott Cowan [00:53:34]:

— Interesting. Now currently for the new book, you I on your website, you’re and depending on what people listen to this, this this isn’t evergreen. So — Right. —

Craig Romano [00:53:43]:

Scott Cowan [00:53:43]:

you’re listening to this in 6 months, folks, and so after October of 2023, this is probably not relevant. where you’re on a book kind of a book tour right now, but local stuff. Right? So Right. Putting you on the spot with this one. Do you enjoy that aspect of the career?

Craig Romano [00:54:01]:

For the most part, yeah, I do. a lot of authors don’t, especially if you’re an introvert.

Scott Cowan [00:54:07]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [00:54:07]:

if you don’t like getting out there in in selling yourself and talking to people, it it it could be misery. it’s really important as an author if you’re gonna survive, you have to get out there. There are I don’t even know how many millions of books that are published every year. It’s it’s overwhelming. the majority of books don’t make money. Mhmm. And to be a successful author, people have so many choices and The days of the big publishing companies put pumping a lot of money into a book. Those are gone. Now publishing companies expect that an author is going to be a publicist. They’re gonna be, active on social media. They’re going to be, you know, pursuing Josh. I do all that stuff. it’s part of the reason why my books is successful. I mean, part 2, I mean, they have to be good books. but I know even when I push, like, my publisher, when I when I come up with a title that I wanna write, my publisher’s even told me that they’re skeptical. Matter of fact, Vancouver, this Purvin shows Vancouver. They’re very, very skeptical about it. but because it was coming from me, they knew. Well, one, you know, I I really believe in this. I I everything I’m telling them that there’s a Vancouver scene believe me, this is the man for this book. I spent a lot of time down there too, and that I will be promoting it. they’re like, okay. We’re gonna take a chance. goodness you. I think if someone else had pitched it, it’d be it’d be skeptical. So so that’s part of 2 because, yeah, I’m just not gonna write the book and let it sell itself because it it doesn’t work that way. I do, contest promotions constantly. I’m involved with organizations And, you know, I mean, I believe in these organizations too, like in Vancouver, Washington. I’ve gone to the friends of the Columbia Forest. I’ve gone to the Columbia Land Trust site I supported the Mount Saint Helens Institute. I believe in all those organizations too because it’s if if you’re practicing what it creates, but also these are These are great, to have these connections just for being viable. I mean, I think a lot of authors don’t realize you have to get back to you. You can’t just talk about you know, the environmental issues and and and not be a part of the, a part that I I do a lot of work with the Washington Trails Association. I mean, people actually think that I I work for them. I I, I I do write for them. I am on, you know, the payroll there, but but I’m not an employee. I’m a but but I’m constantly preaching about them. They’re a great organization. I I participate in their hackathon in the year, and I’m one of their biggest fundraisers. it’s a lot of work. I don’t get physical. I don’t get money back from that. It takes a lot of my time away from writing projects. but I believe in it. And, again, it it it it, a lot of my readers will see that too that, hey. This guy really believes in the trails. He’s just not writing books because he wants to see his name and print or make money. I mean, it’s it’s lifestyle committed to it. And I think Readers are savvy. They they they’re looking for integrity. They they they, you know, they’re gonna support an author, you have to make a connection. You can’t just be faceless or or do something we find, you know, against what they believe in. So I think that’s really important. And and to do that, you have to be definitely out there. So I

Scott Cowan [00:57:27]:

couldn’t agree with you more. Out of curiosity for you, What is what’s working well for book promotion for you? What where are you where are you finding How do I say this? You have an audience. You’ve you’ve over the over your career, you’ve established an audience. And the care and feeding of the existing audiences is important. Absolutely. So because you’re gonna have churn there. Just people are gonna Yeah. So you have to always be in in in looking to expand your audience. So what’s working for you with this type of book? What’s where are you meeting new new readers?

Craig Romano [00:58:09]:

Yeah. So, you know, it’s funny. what, 2009, if you go back when this whole new thing called social media was, you know, and remember my my offices, you gotta get on that. I’m like, oh, god. so frivolous. I don’t want it. I want anything to do it. and, you know, for better, for worse, I’ve really used Facebook in particular to to help market myself. As a matter of fact, I have these new authors that will actually follow me to see what I’m doing because I have I have been successful with Facebook. So it’s been really good. Again, part of what I did and you’re experimenting, it’s not a direct marketing campaign.

Scott Cowan [00:58:50]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [00:58:50]:

People are not gonna follow you if you’re trying to sell to them. every time. So what I’ve done is I’ve created community, and, and my community is very, very diverse because I welcome that. I know that and I hit I meet my readers, out on the trail, it talks, and everything. They expand the whole spectrum, you know, politically, demographically. Yep. people. That’s what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to build a community where our common love, the outdoors, trails, healthy living, that type of stuff. work on that. And so the connection, so I have a free flow of, of communication. I always respond back to people but, I mean, I don’t feel I’m above that or it’s it’s or it’s taking away from my time. it’s important. And, between that and then actually going out there and doing the talks and meeting people, yeah, again, it’s just being part of the community and not just some reclusive, right, or who’s just sitting there. And, just really being mindful of everything I do and and and, connected. You know, you can’t Again, I’m part of this this larger community.

Scott Cowan [01:00:00]:

Right. and

Craig Romano [01:00:00]:

that’s hard to accept. I know a while when you’re just when you’re younger and you’re doing things and you realize I’m on the spotlight now all the time, for better, for worse. For better, it’s obviously, it’s helped me be a better person. for worse, it’s like some times, I just wanna get angry. Like, you know, it’s at the trail head. Someone’s bothering me, and I have to that could be one of my readers. I can’t go off on that for

Scott Cowan [01:00:23]:

Right. That’s always like the, you know, somebody who’s got, and I’m just gonna pick, you know, x I’m just gonna call it X Y Z brand. I’m a independent X Y Z distributor, and they have that on their back of their cars. They cut you off and slam on the brakes.

Craig Romano [01:00:38]:

Right. You got all the time.

Scott Cowan [01:00:39]:

You gotta be careful of the, you know, the your, yeah, the public. Yeah. So TikTok, yes or no?

Craig Romano [01:00:46]:

No. Definitely not. Oh, you know, and it’s funny with that because, I always joke at TikTok too. I’m way over the age on that. and then I I’m sorry. I will say it’s Chinese connected, and I don’t want anything to do with

Scott Cowan [01:01:02]:

the company.

Craig Romano [01:01:03]:

I have my data from China.

Scott Cowan [01:01:05]:

I think that’s a This is about as political as I’m gonna ever get here. I think that’s a a legitimate, and I think it’s becoming I think more and more of us are becoming aware of that possibility and should be cautious How’s that? Yeah. No.

Craig Romano [01:01:23]:

It’s the issue. I mean, I may be overly cautious on it, but that’s how I feel about it. But on the other side, you’ll love this too because it’s reasonable building up. I sent a lot of my millennial friends into into heart attacks. I I opened up an Instagram account. And they’re like, is that you, Romano? So, you know, Again, I realized I I gotta get with it. I have a very good with my audience on Facebook tends to be older. That’s the demographic. Yep. I need to reach younger people and and on the same what’s been great for me when I first started. as an author, the whole publishing industry was in transition.

Scott Cowan [01:02:07]:

You know,

Craig Romano [01:02:08]:

the internet was exploding. Magazines that I wrote for were going out of business, it was a huge change, and I really questioned them. They can I’m done, as a writer. I I don’t see a future, and that’s gonna put us out. And I would do these book talks, where and I’m in my forties at the time, where I’m the youngest person there. Every my audience is all older than me and thinking, god, once once my readers die, I’m done, But then, a few years ago, I started noticing, and I don’t believe it’ll change. Like, there are 20 somethings in my audience now. There’s young people Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [01:02:40]:

We’re

Craig Romano [01:02:41]:

coming to see me talk and everything. I’m not a dinosaur. books are not, you know, are are viable, and I’m starting to see a lot of younger generation. isn’t, you know, they’re embracing books. Again, seeing, again, that everything on the internet is not necessarily word, And I Cowan always tell people too, you get what you pay for. Right. A lot of a lot of what’s out there is crowd crowd sourced. They’re data mining. They’re sponsored by somebody. When you buy one of my books, you already gave. You already put the money down. There’s no pop ups. I’m not I’m at data mining. you know, you trust source. I gotta do it, and that’s what why I, you know, why you wanna pay $20 for my books instead of getting something free off the Internet. A lot of young readers are savvy. They get that. And, Yeah. So I’m seeing growth in in that demographic, which has been very, very encouraging. I think too when I once I had a son, you know, I became a dad late in life. It’s funny. You know, I’m I’m I’m a I’m a boomer who who has who has a a very young kid. So so I may it it made it easier for you know, it’s almost like it opened up a whole new demographic. Now all of a sudden, I have young bombs, you know, following me because, you know, I’m taking my son hiking in it. So, again, trying to stay viable because I don’t wanna be pigeonholed — Mhmm.

Scott Cowan [01:04:01]:

—

Craig Romano [01:04:02]:

into one demographic. I’m trying to be, you know

Scott Cowan [01:04:05]:

No. I think that’s that’s a savvy business thing. So the the whole thread throughout this this whole conversation for me with you has been just this you’re prolific. Lots lots of lots of, you know, lots of, like, lots of miles, lots of pages, lots of words, lots of promotion. You you are busy. The last thing we’re probably gonna talk about today because we could keep going, but let’s the last thing we’re gonna talk about today is there’s another website that you run called hike of the week So you’re committed to 52 additional pieces of content a year on hike of the week. How did you get started with this thing?

Craig Romano [01:04:44]:

Yeah. That’s that’s funny. That that was originally, I’d go way back. I was doing some work. with, with a guy who runs a weather website, and he was kinda offering this service. We wanted to do a hike of the week. You know, we’re trying to pitch it to, to other weather agencies. We actually had, of all places, the weather network, which is Canadian, channel. We we had Yeah. A a contract with them way, way back. I was doing that was a lot of fun. You think I I was flying into Ontario, doing all these sites.

Scott Cowan [01:05:14]:

Okay. Okay.

Craig Romano [01:05:15]:

But, never panned out, and I kind of just kept the sign right. What do I wanna do with this? You know, I I I I own the domain if that’s great. I could week. And, basically, it’s, in essence, it’s it it it helps promote my books.

Scott Cowan [01:05:30]:

Sure.

Craig Romano [01:05:31]:

so what I do is I I I almost all cases, but I always the hikes are hikes in a stripped down version of what you can find in one of my books. And I try to entice people. I I the hikes are all seasonal, so it’s stuff you can do when I when I publish it. It’s like, this is the height you can go out and do now. Mhmm. I try to do less popular hikes so people, you know, are intrigued. And then I’m hoping that a lot of people who are following that gone are gonna click the link or go to the bookstore

Scott Cowan [01:06:00]:

— Mhmm. —

Craig Romano [01:06:01]:

to get the full deal. so so that’s that’s pretty much, what that’s all about.

Scott Cowan [01:06:05]:

No. It’s brilliant. I mean, you know, we had to go down, you know, of the marketing tangent of of your of your business, but that’s that’s brilliant. I think it’s great. And I think what I like about it is you’re providing timely content. You’re not just saying, here’s 52 hikes. You’re saying, here’s a hike that’s appropriate for April 13th. because that’s the last that’s the article that I’m kind of scanning over here on my iPad. bridal veil’s false after — Oh, yeah. — this is after heavy rains. So that’s April 13th. Yep. Coming up next. I don’t know what it’s gonna be, but it’s gonna be something that’s spring related.

Craig Romano [01:06:37]:

If you and then — — shifting Cowan Nancy soon. That’s — Right.

Scott Cowan [01:06:40]:

And then you’ll you’ll rotate through, and it’s it’s seasonal, and I think that’s a brilliant marketing strategy because this this book, you know, you’re round, but I’ve gotta go through and figure out, well, maybe not year round, actually, because it’s central cascades. But — Yeah. I have it

Craig Romano [01:06:55]:

in each hike. It’ll actually have the the dates when when the trails are open.

Scott Cowan [01:06:58]:

And I think I think what you’re doing is is the whole strategy is is quite amazing. So we’re gonna wrap up, but I wanna ask you and what I’m gonna do, I’m not gonna ask you to share all the places that you’re on social. You’ve already said Facebook.

Craig Romano [01:07:10]:

gonna put some

Scott Cowan [01:07:12]:

links to your social channels in in your website in in the hike of the week on on the show notes for people to look at. So that’ll be easy for them. So you’ve done a lot of these conversations with people over the years. You’ve been on evening evening magazine. You, you know, you know, you’ve been you’ve endured me for an hour. What didn’t I ask you that I should have?

Craig Romano [01:07:31]:

Oh, boy. I don’t know. the the host

Scott Cowan [01:07:36]:

cheap card.

Craig Romano [01:07:37]:

I know. boy, good. Is there any, like, you you guys covered a lot of that. the bigger things. Again, I always am, you know, my book is open, and and Scott, I’ve really enjoyed this too as far as, you know, I think I told you earlier I do a lot of interviews and and and some of them, I’ll just lose interest in because they’re asking me a lot of the you know, what’s your favorite type of stuff that that and and it it’s just I’m not really getting into a lot. And, Yeah. I I think, you know, there’s just so much more to, what I do and what I experience and what I want my readers to to experience, then, you know, and, again, people people hike for all kinds of reasons. I think there’s a lot going on now. If you go to a lot of these sites, people, it’s interesting watching, you know, 40 years ago, 50 years ago when, Harvey Manning, my predecessor, I was spraying. I mean, they were, you know, legends in this area. I was well aware of them. I had all their books, they influenced me And so it’s a different world then in that, you know, most of what they consider the enemy, were resource extraction industries, things like that that weren’t compatible with, with a lot of the recreation.

Scott Cowan [01:08:56]:

And

Craig Romano [01:08:57]:

what’s happened as the states change, as everything changes, the resource extraction is has really faded in the state as as a as a large industry.

Scott Cowan [01:09:07]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [01:09:07]:

And the threats to our trails have become different, government, not funding for one thing. But what’s even more interest in that that perhaps would have been hard to predict in in in in is that a lot of recreationalists are fighting among themselves now. and So you see a lot of this, certainly Harvey, if he was alive today, he would be no family. and I imagine I would be attacked by him, he’s very, very, polarizing guy. I mean, it’s fitting well. This this this society, I guess, But, I try to be the opposite. I I I I try right. So, you know, I trail 1. Harvey would hate that. You know, Harvey had one method of of hiking. you just do it this way. So, you know, now people, it’s deeply personal to everybody. to to that person who just slopters, gets down on the ground, and photographs mushrooms, to the person who wants to have the fastest known time on a trail. It’s personal.

Scott Cowan [01:10:08]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [01:10:09]:

You know, we can’t judge or or or or or attack. It’s there. If everyone, as long as they’re abiding by proper ethics to get outdoors and leave no trace, being respectful of other users, we should get along. You know? But, it yeah. We should, but it’s really interesting. I’m on a lot of these forums where I’m more just watching, not participating for a lot of reasons. I don’t wanna get but I need to see the pulse out there. And it’s really interesting seeing, you know, people just getting all worked up like, all those, you know, trail runners or those mountain bikers, assuming that mountain bikers aren’t trails that are open to mountain biking. I mean, once you, you know, that’s the thing that’s going for everyone too. And everyone thinking that their mode, not everyone, but a lot of people thinking their mode is superior Cowan selling. You know, back in my day, we only carry £50. And, I mean, you hear that kind of stuff, and it’s, like, And, again, you want your it’s part of why we have been afraid to embrace, change or or why is something different? And so you’re seeing now, and this is a great thing, that’s a AA sword. this, prolific, amount of new high new hires. Mhmm. And people coming from non traditional hiking backgrounds, right, you know, from underserved communities. And and, this is great at getting people out. And yet you still see people, the gatekeepers, that, you know, only think and it always cracks me up, and and there was something else I I can’t remember. I always have fun with this. I’ll write something, you know, about Olympic National Park. Okay. I’m just using it as examples to get it. And I have people from Port Angeles. Well, all those people Cowan be in our backyard and scenario. You mean, all those people shouldn’t be in our public lands. you know, Olympic National Park belongs to the people of California, New Jersey, Arkansas, Puerto Rico. I mean, it is ours. it’s just because you live there, it’s not your private backyard. And so I I I see a lot of that that kinda attitude, I think I think, yeah, the people who are very, very, I felt that way when I was in New Hampshire at the White Mountain National Forest. It was all, you know, that Forest belongs to everybody, not just the people of New Hampshire. And we realize, you know, it it’s we should be welcoming these these these these are public lands for all of us because you want people to connect those lands. You want them to support those lands, and you want them to vote to expand those lands and everything. And and if you’re coming across as a gatekeeper and leaders and and people don’t feel welcome there. Why why are they going to to care about protecting the environment, not to mention too. It’s just ethically wrong in, you know, to to to treat different people that you’re not welcome here. So So I’ve seen great changes there, and and it’s amazing no matter where I go, diverse people, whether, again, whether hiking to Georgia Health Washington Hampshire, seeing lots of new faces, out there, and we need to be as as welcoming. And, again, and if people are are not versed in, proper ethics. That’s where people like me with Washington Trails Association where a lot of you employ it. That’s where we can take the lead in setting examples, and this is how, but not by chastising and and and, turning people off by by educated. So, a lot of the organizations, like the MTA, the mountaineers, a lot of these groups, they get it. And if you look at their it’s funny because 30 years ago, when it came out here, and I joined the mountain years right away. And I thought, they were kind of a an old guard organization. It’s kinda like, you know, the old white guy from Boer. He was like, they’re private. And and and I hope I hot, you know, but that’s that was my, you know, especially coming from the green mountain club in Vermont, which is all bunch of hippies. You know, it just felt like a very, very different and it it didn’t feel welcoming to a lot of people. it’s not that way anymore. It’s a very, very different organization. And, again, this is my interpretation. So I hope I’m not offending anybody from 30 years ago. I I I still belong to Mountaineers. It’s a It’s a very different organization. It’s very, very welcoming. and lots of young people, lots of, you know, people from diverse ethnic backgrounds and and and socioeconomic backgrounds, which is really important, and say the new WTA, and they’re being more reflective of our society. And so we’re not And and it’s interesting because hiking has that, history. I mean, the Appalachian Mountain Club when it opened in the 18 seventies in Boston was an elitist rich guy organization. Mhmm. And, you know, now it’s the largest circular, large parking regularization in the country with, you know, every type of background representative. So, again, it’s just that edit evolution changes tough, but, I see a lot of these hiking groups that I’ve done talk their their membership’s dying. It’s dying because they’re not welcoming what. Right. you you know, you you gotta do that. So — Okay. And and and, don’t get afraid. What some of these new people are gonna bring to the into the your organization?

Scott Cowan [01:15:17]:

Absolutely. Alright. My last question for you, and I’ll let you go. very, very serious question.

Craig Romano [01:15:23]:

Cake or

Scott Cowan [01:15:27]:

pie and why?

Craig Romano [01:15:29]:

Definitely pie. hiccup is not very healthy, but but it’s pie. There’s there’s fruit disguised in it. I wasn’t I’m not a sweets. I’m not a sweets person. a lot of it when I when I was diagnosed with PMR, I pretty much eradicated a lot of sugar out of my diet because sugar causes inflammation.

Scott Cowan [01:15:54]:

Mhmm.

Craig Romano [01:15:54]:

Although I do have more weakness. It’s chocolate. Okay. So chocolate, I don’t eat other than sugary stuff out there, but I chocolate Yeah. It’s it’s it’s on every hike. I love chocolate. And you all appreciate the spot to one of my my, 11th essential. Especially when I’m doing long, long hikes and runs, contains 2 of the food groups. It’s a chocolate covered espresso beans.

Scott Cowan [01:16:21]:

There you go.

Craig Romano [01:16:22]:

perfect. I

Scott Cowan [01:16:23]:

can get into hiking. I can get into hiking.

Craig Romano [01:16:26]:

Yeah. So, yeah, that’s my chocolate covered espresso beans. That’s my my my magic still.

Scott Cowan [01:16:33]:

Craig, thank you so much for sitting down with me today. I compliment you on your career because anybody that’s published 25 books, a either is crazy or b loves what they do or both. And and I, you know, I applaud the the the volume of publications that you participate, and I also applaud the the amount of research that you do. It’s it’s impressive. and you have been extremely gracious with your time. I’ve enjoyed this a lot.

Craig Romano [01:17:11]:

Thanks. Likewise. I I really enjoyed being here. I I I program. Thank you for inviting me.

Scott Cowan [01:17:15]:

And, like I said, best of success with this book Cowan the next one, the last question. I promise this is the last question. So at the time of recording, it’s April of 2023.

Craig Romano [01:17:26]:

Right.

Scott Cowan [01:17:27]:

How many more books do you have planned to released this year.

Craig Romano [01:17:31]:

Yeah. No. I’m glad you asked me that because this is my shameless plug time.

Scott Cowan [01:17:34]:

There we go. Please.

Craig Romano [01:17:35]:

So what’s coming out the end of this year. So around, January is the 2nd edition of Jay hiking, the Columbia River Gorge. So, you know, that, again, that Vancouver area that that I know — Right.

Scott Cowan [01:17:46]:

—

Craig Romano [01:17:46]:

my wife grew up in Vancouver, I know the area there pretty well.

Scott Cowan [01:17:49]:

Craig Romano [01:17:49]:

Now we’re gonna ship the the brand new book that I have coming out after that is the other Vancouver. I’ve been waiting so long to do this book. COVID shut me out of the country for a few years. You know? I live an hour south of of the of the British Columbia border. I actually love it up there. So I’m doing in our urban trails at Cooper B C book, which I’m through a map, I’ll be up there next weekend. I’m doing a talk and chill whack, and I’ll be doing research up there. K. And then after that, it’s a statewide rail trail book. Oh. And and it would be my first hiking guide that won’t mess won’t really just be hiking specific. I’ll be talking about cycling. in there too. So it’s gonna be a a comprehensive statewide rail trouble. And that’s going to be, a lot of fun researching because there’s a couple, 250 mile trails that I have to do all all the miles, which I will be doing, a lot of that research by vice

Scott Cowan [01:18:44]:

That’s good for you. And so Samuel’s buck time, where do you want people to go to find you? Just where do you want where do you wanna send where’s that one spot you wanna send them

Craig Romano [01:18:54]:

Yeah. You go to craigromano.com you wanna connect me Facebook. you can go there. Craig Ramona guidebook author. it’s my page. And then, you definitely support your local bookstores. I encourage that, but, you know, Amazon shares all my titles and we’ll get them soon, Barnes and Noble, REI, Yeah. And then, please, I know I’m gonna be doing a lot of talks. Even if you get this plate, I will be lining up stuff again in the fall. I usually I usually I mean, Tacoma, Vancouver, Seattle, Eastside, Bellingham. we’ll get out to Winatchee too.

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